V. annoyed about local faith school and failed applications

[PiaThreeTimes]

Our local primary is a C of E school and is very selective about who's applications are successful. The headteacher is very keen on references from the local vicar, for example.

This has resulted in many children within easy walking distance of the school not being accepted, to start in Sep. They will have to be driven to the schools at which they have been accepted. However, I know of two children who have been accepted and will have to be driven because of the distance from their home to the school.

This doesn't affect my driectly, BTW. I'm just very annoyed that people will have to drive when they could be walking. Priorities are all wrong here.

OK, it could be argued that it's a faith school and therefore church-goers are their priority, but this feels very ethically wrong to me.

CoE schools have a criteria, LIKE ALL OTHER FAITH SCHOOLS, which does prioritise on religious grounds, as do all other faith schools.

Why shouldn't children who regularly attend church, or mosque, or synagogue be allowed access to a faith school?

I know of very few faith schools (other than Catholic ones in the local area) where the situation is as you describe ie. enough CoE children to FILL every school within an 8 mile radius. It's a fact that there has been a MASSIVE drop in church attendance over the last 20 years and I would be very impressed if there were enough CoE children to fill all those school places! Remember to take into account that each of those schools will have an attached church.

Ah but people with CoE faith - even if they live 20miles away - have priority over children with no faith who live in the village. This makes no sense - village kids of no faith having to be driven out to the nearest town to school whilst people from many miles away are driven into it, just because they attend a church - not even the village church.

I dislike the idea of parental choice TBH when it reaches this degree.

I think the differences in CoE schools are down to whether they are Voluntary Aided or Voluntary Controlled. Our village school is voluntary aided and therefore the church owns the buildings etc and has a massive influence in who can attend the school.

By the same argument, why shouldn't atheist kids have access to an atheist school?

I don't know where you live bb99 but I'm in an area in London where even kids who attend the parish church can't get in to the local faith school and this isn't an unusual situation.

The massive drop in church attendance is exactly the reason that the Church is very unlikely to actually have genuine community places - they rely on a congretation full of parents of pre-school children to boost their flagging numbers.

rosebud I agree that there does need to be a choice - you can ask your child to be kept out of the religious parts of an assembly or 'collective worship', so you can effectively send your child to a secular school. This is IME what J. Witnesses do, to support their religious beliefs.

If my children don't go to a faith school I can't ring the school and make them do religious things for them - but parents can take their children out of religious parts of the school day IYSWIM.

captain, yes the church owns the buildings etc, though the State pays for 90% of the upkeep, extensions, building work etc. It also pays for the teachers to be trained, their salaries and any additional support needs eg SEN. This makes excluding local children because their parents don't have a faith even more scandalous imvho.

I live in the country, but there are LOADS of faith schools around here - lots of small villages and an abundance of schools both faith and state.

rosebud - how can even kids who attend the parish church can't get in to the local faith school work? Who are all the religious undercover children sneaking past the local parish churchgoers, in order to get their school places?

I thought the idea of a faith school should be to spread the faith, the Good News, and try and educate kids about the faith who don't go to sunday school - not to be an exclusive members only club?

So my children should be marginalised and not able to access the collective assembly of the school because their parents are atheists? Lovely.

And why should a school do the 'religious things' for you - isn't there plenty of time outside of school to practice?

bb99, that's right. The single form entry C of E school round the corner from us has more applicants from parents who worship in the Parish than there are places. There aren't any 'religious undercover children' that I know of, just more applicants from the Parish than there are places.

rosebud - read the post again!

You have the choice. I know some lovely J.Witness parents who keep thier children out of the RELIGIOUS parts of the 'act of collective worship' ie. the prayers and the hymns, but then the children go INTO the secular parts of the assemblies ie. the prize givings and notices and the main part of the assembly.

It means that you have the choice - not to marginalise your children, but to allow them to not experience the parts of the collective worship you disagree with.

captain - I will requote myself - on my next post.

But that's my point. What is the place of prayers and hymns in school? Or other religious practice for that matter?

It would be marginalising my kids - and other kids from non-faith families - to not participate in something that everyone else was when that something is completely unnecessary to the school day.

It would be a bit like working in an office where there was an enormous pot of tea with loads of milk and sugar brewed for everyone to drink and you were the only person who liked tea black and with no sugar and being told that you should go and make your own rather than there being a pot of black tea brewed that people could add to. iyswim.

I also think it's great if children from non-religious have the opportunity to experience a faith school environment so they have the opportunity to experience a religion and make up their own minds about it.

rosebud - if you are so against a faith based education, why are you bothered about faith schools having a faith based entrance criteria? Surely it would be the worst thing ever for your children to go to a faith school?

I have to go to bed now - see you in the morning.

I don't think that hymns and prayers are unnecessary in schools - that's why I want my children to attend a faith school.

*bb99 I also think it's important for nonreligious kids to attend a faith school - so I don't like the fact that faith schools have criteria which can make them exclusive and can ban ordinary kids from the community.

To me it is unquestionably wrong that a child's access to state funded education should be influenced by the religion of their parents.

It is a good thing that parents have the right to express a choice as to which school their child goes to. But the likelihood that they get access to the school of their choice should not be affected by whether they choose to attend a particular church.

No schools exclude pupils because of religion (unless there are any independent schools that do so, but we aren't really talking about them on this thread). That is a myth. Any school that did so would be in breach of the Admissions Code.

Faith schools can give priority to children of the faith and, of course, if there are enough of them that may mean that children not of the faith won't get in. But they cannot refuse to accept children just because they are not of the faith.

Most community schools have admission criteria something like:

• Looked after children
• Special medical or social needs
• Siblings
• Distance

So you can still get children from 10 miles away being given priority over local families if they fall into one of the top three categories.

If you believe in parental choice you have to accept that sometimes children from 10 miles away will get priority over local families. If you insist on schools always admitting the children living nearest there is no parental choice.

Then I don't believe in parental choice :) - I don't trust other parents!

not all faith schools work the same. Near me the 2 catholic schools don't care if you attend church, just that you are baptised. The CofE wants regular attendance at a church and practically a letter from god to get in! There are 2 other CofE though who have the same criteria as community schools as outlined by prh47bridge and so in effect are like nonfaith schools.

I agree if all schools admitted those locally then the expectation would be for everyone to go to their local school, which is great if that school is okay but for most i think it would be a backwards step, limiting choice. Long term it could cause bigger divides between good and bad areas based on good and poor schools etc.

I am not sure how the 10% works if too many faith people apply - do they just refuse faith people to take those of non-faith? That seems wrong to me?

tbh i don't understand why people would want to send their kids to a faith school if they absolutely have no interest in it - they are very biased in terms of teaching. Even the convenience thing wouldnt sway me if i had no interest. However, i travel 3.5 miles to get my DD in a catholic school - can't get in those closer anyway as i am bottom of priority for all the other CofE schools near me as catholic. So the travel does not apply only to people of nonfaith, faith people may have to travel if their faith puts them bottom of schools criteria closer.

Here they have withdrawn free school transpor tfor those attending faith schools when it is not their nearest school.So am expecting mor eplaces will become available especially at senior level

dd goes to Cof E school I had fight to get her in but won in the end 89 places and theres only 8 kids locally rest have to drive in .I had to argue that any other schools were jsut not pratical 12 miles to get a primary place elsewise .

I have no faith and do not believe and did not even pretend to be but won as I did feel that as we live in such a small area that it was important for dd to be able to socialise with the children from the community and all social events are done through the school to .Which was what won us a place at appeal .

proposal to do that here too

Sunnyday: Re the 10% thing: Our local CofE school designates a set proportion of faith and community places. After SEN and looked after (who would be admitted regardless of faith) those two types of places are filled by siblings, faith qualification by type and then distance from school (type means CofE priority, then any other Christian, then any other religion) until the faith places are filled. Any remaining faith applicants are then rolled over for community places, which allocates first to siblings, then by distance (so in practice, "left over" faith applicants don't stand much of a chance).

Other faiths may of course do it differently. In CofE the proportion of community places is usually 30% (in VC schools already 100%), and the aim is to move it to 90%. i'll try to check numbers, but there a only about 2,500 VA CofE schools - though still a bugger if you happen to live near a cluster of them.

an atheist school = pretty much a state school no?
I think all children have the right to learn about religion anyway just the same as they have the right to not want it in their lives - they should have a choice. Just because a parent does not believe why should a child miss out on an opportunity to learn about it or take part in religious experiences - Why is always when the parents are opposed to religion that its ok for the child to not participate but the other way around is not ok?

thanks, meditrina!

I agree that it must be a nightmare if you cannot get into your local faith school but i do wander why people don't consider this when their kids are a much younger age and get them baptised?

Now i know lots of people will slate me for that and i'm not suggesting that those with strong non-religious beliefs go getting their kids baptised if they don't want to. However, i don't understand why you wouldn't do it if you don't really care either way? If you are prepared to send your child to a faith school, then i would presume that your arguments against faith are not that strong so in these cases would you not consider getting your kids baptised just to get them in the school and save all the worry when it comes to admissions? If you are planning to get them into faith school then it honestly doesn't make sense to me?

My sil has 3 CofE children, the eldest attends a catholic school. The past 2 years numbers have rapidly increased and so next month plans on making the two youngest catholic. Not ideal and shocking to some i understand but she's not religious and want to get the best for her kids.
If i has a strong view either way then i can understand people accepting a school far away but if i had a school on my doorsetp that was good, i'm afraid my principles would take a backseat.

Its not fair that people have to do this but i would do it (and have) for my kids to get into a good school.