Can the governors of an aided primary school keep a child out ?

[Ishani]

We are relocating and have found a nice school which if a lady who is viewing the school today wants a place for her twins in September will take year 5 to 31 children.
I also want a place in year 5 and year 2 (which currently has 30).
If they can accommodate 31 in year 5 then surely they can accommodate 31 in year 2 and if they can go over the numbers in year 5 by 1 then 2 will not make much difference.
What do you think.
We will live in the blooming playground so catchment isn't up for debate.
I've been TOLD by the receptionist that they will not accept my baptised children and would fight any appeal :(

Sorry should have said year 3, currently in year 2

But can the governors say no if there's a precedent by them allowing an extra one in year 5 ?

Yes, they can refuse to admit your children and, in the situation you describe, they should do so. I'm afraid the law is against you.

Classes in Reception, Y1 and Y2 cannot have more than 30 children with a single teacher by law. However, there is no limit on the size of classes in Y3 and later. So the school is absolutely right that they cannot accept your child into Y2. Even in Y5, they should only accept children up to the admission number (presumably 30) and force parents to go to appeal for children beyond that. However, some LAs/schools have specific provision to admit siblings in the same cohort even if it pushes them over the admission number, which would allow the lady you mention to get both her children admitted without an appeal but would then stop your Y5 child getting a place.

So the receptionist was right. They cannot accept your baptised children without breaking the law and they are required to fight any appeal.

Your chances of success at an appeal for your Y2 child are minimal. An appeal should only succeed if you can show a mistake has been made. That is highly unlikely for an in year admission. However, you stand a better chance of success if you can wait until your younger child would go into Y3 provided you can make a good case for admission - just living in the playground is not enough, I'm afraid. Similarly you have a reasonable chance of success at appeal for your Y5 child provided you can make a good case for admission.

We've crossed posted, so if this lady doesn't take the place or I get there first with my 30th child in year 5 and then appeal, my year 3 child having a sibling would be in quite a good position yes ?

Cross posted!

To answer your latest question, admission doesn't work by precedents. Just because they have gone over the admission number one year does not mean they have to go over the admission number for any other year.

Having said that, if some years go over the admission number it helps you at appeal as it suggests that the school can cope with some additional pupils.

We do meet other criteria and we do actually attend Church other than Christmas, Easter and when you want a certain school too

Cross posted again!

If you get there first for the Y5 place then that would help with a case for your Y3 child. I would also look for other points to strengthen the case. You need to think of features of this school which will be particularly beneficial for your child.

I thought you probably did meet other criteria but I'm afraid that doesn't really matter at appeal. The question the panel has to answer is whether the prejudice to your child through not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school through having to admit an additional pupil. The admission criteria aren't really relevant to that.

Pressed "Post" too early!

So the fact that you tick a lot of boxes will help a little but it may not be enough on its own to win an appeal. It depends on the strength of the school's case to refuse admission.

but the fact that they were prepared to go over for twins in the same class must mean that they'd be pretty mean not to go over for my siblings wouLdn't it ?
Am racing to get these forms in lol

Do you know the published admission number? In DS1's school they can have up to 32 for example which would mean that you should have a place here. Not sure where you find details to the published admission numbers though. Maybe the Country council website?

If it is 30 or 31 I would say you don't stand much chance - they can't take more than that number. If it is higher then I think there are grounds for appeal.

Have you checked the admission policy for
(a) the Pupil Admission Number forthe Year 5 entry to Year R
and
(b) the way in which same cohort siblings are admitted. Some admit twins etc where the first is within the PAN but other same cohort siblings are admitted even though the number in class will exceed the PAN.

All admissions are handled by the Local Authority, the school is not now allowed to just admit. So as soon as you apply to the Local Authority they will contact the school and ask them how many they have on the register for that year group and therefore know whether they are full or not in the year group.
If two or more apply at the same time then the Local authority will in conjunction with the school, as it is a faith school, work out who has priority against the admission criteria of the school. If it comes down to distance and you do live "on the playground" then you should have priority.
Either way one of you is going to be disappointed with not getting a place for year 5. In theory on appeal you would not get a place for year 2 because of the infant class size regs but you might for year 3 as it will then be about your own personal cicumstances.
You should formally ask in writing the LA admission office for the two places ASAP and then see what happens. If you do not get the place in year5 then I would appeal as there is a reasonable likelyhood that the school have offered the two places to the siblings when they should not have done, but it does all depend on the timing of the applications and when the LA not the school got the request. Whether your year2 /3 would get a place at appeal I think is a matter of debate.

I have nearly killed myself faxing that application over tonight and it is time stamped 17.07 6/5/2011 and if I do not get a place I shall be whipping that out as evidence because I cannot see how they could possible have got an application in before me ;-)

Keep your fingers crossed for me please

I was going to keep quiet about the year 3 place until I have the year 5 place confirmed just in case I do not get the year 5 place because they know I shall be trouble. Do you think that would be ok ?

Its upto you what you do. However the school is likely to spill the beans to the Local Authority that there is a sibling somewhere in the mix as you have been into the school. The school and LA may well be looking for your year 5 child to start before September if they offer a place, is this a problem?
Is the sibling actually in year 3 or is it in year 2 and are you are looking for a place for September ?
Either way you need to do the same again in applying for the place and being formally rejected as the school is full in that year group, before you can appeal for a place. Obviously having a sibling with a place is a good starting point for an appeal, as is your location but you also need to be thinking about what else are reasons for wanting the place in this particular school to give the best possible case at appeal

No she could start any time tbh, I haven't told the school anything about us, the receptionist just spilled all the beans about the other family, like they were a done deal and told me not to waste my time.

I don't have any other reason other than prominity to the house and it's an ofsted outstanding school.
Therefore I feel i need the sibling in place before I ask for the 31st place which couldn't happen before September when they start year 3 anyway.

If the only reason you can give is proximity it is unlikely to be enough to win an appeal. You may strike it lucky but you would have a better case if you can come up with some other reasons. Are there any facilities this school has which would be particularly useful for your child, for example.

Well no not really she's a perfectly normal child and it's a normal school, this is why I feel it's so important DD1 gets that year 5 place and then my appeal for the year 3 place will be on the basis that I cannot be in two places at once dropping off or picking up and if they were prepared to go to 31 in year 5 for those twins then the same should apply to my year 3 child to be in school with her sibling iyswim.

But if your child 'gets' the place in Year 5 then they haven't gone to 31. I'm not sure if you could use anecdotal evidence that 'someone said they might go to 31' in an appeal.

I don't have anything like the experience of some of those here but I have heard of twins being regarded as exceptional and adjustments made for them where they'd not be for other siblings.

And also, as outrageous as it may seem there isn't usually scope in the admission policy for needing to get children to different schools, they expect you to use a childminder or breakfast club in order to do it. It is quite possible to get the Y5 child in but not the Y2/3 one.

I suppose if they go to different schools it's not the end of the world, gives me an insight into 2 different ones before I have to decide for the baby and he'll have to spend the most time there.
Thanks for the info.