Chances of Getting a Place in a Year Class that has 30 in it

[oliandjoesmum]

Hi all
Appreciate everyone is currently taken up with reception place admission/ appeals. but was hoping someone may be able to give me some advice on chances of success in appealing for a Year 3 place.
I have 3 sons, my eldest goes to a special school, and is transported to and from in a taxi. My second goes to a large duel entry primary and is in Year 2. It is an oversubscribed and good school, but I just don't 'feel it', and it has nighmarish congestion problems that mean my eldest son is frequently left waiting outside my house for 30 minutes for me to get back. Even if I walked the wait would be the same.
DS3 has just been accepted at our other local catchment school. Is single entry, outstanding ofsted, much closer to us, and no congestion problems. I would easily get back for my eldest son in time. We have been very lucky to get the place, 240 applications for 30 places, my son one of only 3 without a sibling who got a place.
I now want to apply for a place there for DS2 in September when he will be in Year 3. He is already at the top of the waiting list, and as of September has a sibling there. I can still hope and pray someone leaves, but they haven't for the last 2 years he has been on the list. The school used to be infants only so has some years with 30 in a class, but other years with 3 classses with 18 in each.
Now the actual question!! Does anyone have experience of being offered a place in these circumstances (there are 30 in the class, but infant class regulations will no longer apply in Year 3). If not offered do you think/ have any experience of me being successful on appeal? Would my logistics problems for my eldest son be considered at all? He is autisitc and gets very stressed by the long wait. I could not get him first as would then be late for the other two, and there are no places available in the afterschool care at DS2's school. Additionally, do you think it is wrong to deliberately push a class over the 30 threshold?
I have the much unwanted option (because really cannot afford it as a single mother without making big sacrifices for my other children and working more hours) of going private for DS2. This would then allow me to manage the logistics.
Guess I would like to know in summary if I have a cat in hell's chance, or to just accept it isn't going to happen and fork out the deposit for the private school.
Many thanks

Hi I haven't any first hand experience but there are a few schools near me which are oversubscribed and when siblings have been split at reception age, they have been allowed to join their siblings from year 3 onwards when infant class size regulations no longer apply. In my DD school all classes from Y3 upwards (2 per year) have average 32-34 in - i suppose it depends on what their arguement is against compared to yours for and if they have assistants, and other support staff etc.

I think your chances at appeal are middling to good. Appeals are usually about the child in question rather than their siblings, but I think in your situation it's worth a shot.

In the first place, check whether your youngest child's school will count your middle son as a sibling. Schools around here would, but I have heard of schools where the sibling criterion only works for younger siblings. It's not clear to me whether you have already applied for a place for him as a sibling - I'm assuming he's been on the waiting list ever since he started at the other school - but you could do that now and see what happens. There's a chance they'll give you the place. If they don't, you can then appeal.

What will be most helpful to you is confirmation from a professional (teacher, paediatrician, etc) who knows your oldest son well, confirming that he attends the special school and that the current pick-up arrangements are not working well and he is confused and distressed by being left outside the house waiting for you. Relate this as best you can to your middle son's needs too. There's an obvious benefit in the two youngest going to school together. Are there any other reasons why this school would be particularly suitable for your middle son?

I can't predict what an appeal panel will make of it but suspect that many would be willing to look at the whole picture of the boys' needs. To some extent, it will depend on how strong a case there is against your son being admitted. Look for evidence of any KS2 classes which have had more than 30 in them. Are the year groups with 3x18 pupils in KS1 or KS2? What is the class size for next year's Y3?

I really can't offer a view of whether it's "wrong" to push a class over 30. The law permits it, so it's certainly not wrong in law. It is true that as the class gets bigger, the experience of individual children in the class may become less good - the class is more crowded, each child gets a slightly smaller share of the teacher's attention - but that is why the panel has to weigh up the prejudice (disadvantage) to the child of not being admitted against the prejudice to the school of admitting another pupil. Anything else is a moral judgement.

We successfully appealed for a Y3 place for DS as DD had a reception place there and DS's school was 3 miles away in bad traffic.
The panel were very sympathetic to our situation and were very tough on complaints from the school at having to put 31 in a class, as it is not unusual around London. Its definitely worth a go, but it's a tough process so I hope you have your ex or someone close who will support you through it. You do take rejection of your child, and someone saying they don't want your child very personally. A lot of children move to private schools in Y3, so a place may become available before you have to go through with an appeal anyway.
Having got a place we then moved DS to a private school after 1 year as we hated it, and moved DD as well - but that's another story.

I would go to appeal but to go now is probably too soon. Officially you do not have a sibling in the school until september, so i would officially ask the LA for a place at the end of June, knowing that it will be rejected. That will then allow you to put in an appeal immediately before the end of the school year. The appeal will not be till the new academic year by which time you will have a sibling and a sensible reason for admission based on the two siblings being together and your third sibling being autistic. I agree with panelmember that a letter from a consultant or paedatrician confirming how confusing and distressing it is for your son would be a real help.
Do not have any quarms over going above 30 in the class, no other parent would and it is for the panel to balance the arguements for and against admission.

thanks so much, was feeling very negative about the whole thing, but now feel much better. My eldest son really has no alternative to the school where he is, he was at DS3's soon to be school but we were forced to move him because of his very complex needs. It nearly broke my heart as it wasn't until year 4 and he had friends/ can walk to the school etc. Obviously they can't argue that his siblings should go to his school because they are not autistic.
The sibling rule here works up and down which is a help, and I agree that I should not appeal until the end of June because if I fail on infant class size regulations now I have to wait a whole year to appeal again.
I know the school very well, it is yet to have a Year 6, 28 in Year 5, 2 classes of 24 in Year 4, 3 classes of 18 in Year 3, straight 30 in all the infant classes. Obviously the current year 2 will become a Year 3 of 30 in September unless someone leaves. This is historically because it was a duel entry Infant school that has become a single entry primary.
Feel a bit self-indulgent, both schools are good and we have the same problem here in Cheshire of lots of people not getting in to any of their chosen schools even though they are in catchment, seems like planning has gone very wrong somewhere along the line.
Anyway, am going to give it my very best shot, will take the taxi driver with me, it is a right pain for him the way things are!

It is actually one appeal per academic year, not 12 months, though it is a bit of grey area as to whether the date is when you launch the appeal or when the appeal is held.
When you do your written appeal just make sure that you say in big capital letters that you are appealing for a place for September, just so they do not try and do it as an ICS case.
As a two form entry infant school you would have had 6 classrooms, going to a one form entry primary says you will have 7 classrooms, but at present you have 9 classes and if they keep the same class structure in September they will have 10 classes. So does the school have mobiles on site at present? An interesting arguement that actually though there is an admission number of 30, the real net capacity of the school presently is far in excess of 210 pupils with 9 classrooms.

Yes, they currently have porter cabins, obviously streaming them down as children go through to high school, with eventually a classic 1 form entry school. When it was an infant school some years it took 2 classes, some years 3, it depended on the whim of the LEA. The year DS1 went they only took 42, the following year it was 70! Now down to 30, hence the problems with allocation of preferences around here. I don't know whether I can argue partly on the basis that each of these under 30 classes further up the school have a teacher each so there is plenty of capacity to take one more. What I don't want to do is then force mixed year groups, and end up with all the Mums being cross with me because in the past I know it hasn't been popular with the Mum's with the children in a mixed year group class.

The panel is not allowed to force the school into any kind of change of class organisation. In effect your appeal will revolve about whether the class can have 31 in it rather than 30 and not about anything else. The weakness in the school's case is that they can hardly talk about the school being full to busting when they have 3 classes with 18 in and 2 classes with 24 in, so I would expect the LA's case to be very much that the classroom is not big enough to take more than 30. So you need to establish the actual size of the classroom used for year 3 and hope it is a big one!
They will also undoubtedly talk about the fact that the school is changing and that to introduce more pupils over the 30 will cause complications. Might be worth asking them to explain what these complications will be.

I doubt you will force mixed year groups based on the information you have posted. The fact that the school is operating well below capacity helps you. The fact that there are only 30 in the class your son would go in is also in your favour - many schools operate with classes of 32 or 33 in Y3-6. But the capacity of individual classes further up the school doesn't really matter. Don't get hung up about 30 in a class. That isn't relevant once you get to Y3. Most appeal panels won't start getting twitchy about numbers until they get to around 33 or 34 children in a class.

Cross posted with Admission! But Admission is absolutely right that the appeal panel cannot force the school to change its class organisation. The school may decide to do so but that is their decision, not something forced on them.

It is not in the school's interest to change the class organisation as they are set up to move to a one form entry school over time. Any change to mix aged teaching will create enormous difficulties and will quite rightly be resisted both by the head teacher and by CWAC Local Authority.

That however does not stop 31 being in a year 3 class, which is what this is about given your particular personal circumstances. You need to emphasise the local traffic problems and the particular problems in relation to your eldest child with SEN. But get your appeal in as discussed because it would not be unusual for there to be a number of appeals for year3 entry to this school.

that is an interesting point, the school certainly used to have a massive waiting list, not sure what it is now. Does the fact we are currently at the top of the list (on catchment/ distance alone, the fact we will have a sibling in September has not been added yet) make any difference here?
I really need to speak to the LEA, but I am wary of making an appeal too soon because of the obligation to take a place up within 4 weeks means I would be appealing for Year 2 and would lose based on Infant Class Size regulations. Those in the know, is it possible to appeal now for a place in September? Getting all twitchy now that someone may beat me to it! My thoughts were to appeal first week in June, once back from half term, making it quite clear I am appealing for a Year 3 place.
Finally - is there any chance the LEA may just give me a place without an appeal? Is it up to the school or them?
Many thanks in advance for the help

There is absolutely no way that the LA are just going to give you a place even though CWAC are actually quite good when it comes to issues like this.

All places are now offered by the LA. They will contact the primary school and the head will tell the LA what the current situation is re places. It is also not the school who should be holding the waiting list, though presumably the head will pass on the information that you are looking for a place if anybody else starts the process. Obviously if you apply now they will say it is full and the LA will expect you to take up the place ASAP.

Appeals for year reception will be taking place through till effectly the end of the summer term. What the LA will do is put your appeal on with the reception appeals with the same admission panel if it can be done. Any request for an appeal has to be completed within 40 school days, so If you applied today that would take you through to the beginning of July. So I think that you are probably right to think in terms of early June as the best time to appeal for a place in September. They would not expect you to start till September. The only slight danger is that if they are overrun with reception appeals that they will keep yours until the 40 school days are nearly up and that would actually be in early September. But I am sure that they will make every attempt to slot you in before the summer holidays start - they do not do any appeals during the summer holidays.