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Primary education

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Another appeals thread

12 replies

Indith · 18/04/2011 15:28

2 schools in the next village, ds has been offered a place at the county primary. It is an ok school I suppose but we have a few issues with it. We want him to go to the lovely little Catholic school. We are not catholic but the schol is about 50/50 catholic and non. This year has been a very high birth year so he hasn't got in.

Anyone want to help me put thoughts into something good to appeal on?

The good news is that appeals tend to get in but with this year having a higher number of applications than usual I don't want to be too confident.

The main reasons:

  1. Ds has very just 2 friends his own age. He knows and is friends with a lot of the older children in our village who all go to the catholic school. Of the friends his age one is going to the catholic school, the other is going to a school in a different village. The school is taught in mixed classes after reception and the older children do nuture and take care of the younger ones outside of class time. While I recognise that at a young age friendships are fluid and will form quickly, I do feel it is a factor to consider in conjuction with the other reasons.

  2. Class sizes, the county primary has large classes and reception and nursery share a lot of space and children run pretty freely between the 2. This creates a very busy spae with large numbers of people. Ds does not deal with busy situations well and can get very stressed. Again, I recognise that getting used to different situations is important but combined with the above will be a double blow to the confidence which surely it is best to avoid if possible.

  3. Confidence with writing/drawing. He isn't. At all. He will refuse point blank to draw and if he does do a picture will say it is rubbish and refuse to do any more for several months while I do my best to gently coax him into trying. Nursery have recognised this. His learning journey says he is reluctant to make mark. The smaller class sizes of the school and more one to one attention will benefit him. My worry (although I would probably not really be able tosay this in appeal would I?) is that with things being fluid between reception and nursery it would be easy for ds to avoid situations in which he is expected to write/draw. Orally he adores making sounds and words so would probably show up quite bright with that but could slip through the net with written work in the larger class size environment. I don't know how to put this properly, it just sounds like a PFB parent Grin.

  4. Lastly ds has ongoing issues with constipation, soiling and with lots of wetting too. We are working on it, we really are. I am expecting set backs with school starting. Tiredness, stress and so on will affect him. When we visited the pre-school at teh county primary they were catsbumface about it when we told them and said that if he soiled they would have to call me to pick him up. At that point he soiled a lot and although I knew that legally they had to accept him even if not fully toilet trained their attitude did not inspire ocnfidence and I decided to send him to a private nursery for his funded hours which he adores. The thought of him having to go to reception where that staff had such a bad attitude towards toileting fills me with horror. The Catholic school has wonderful pastoral care and each child is cared for as an individual. This is something which I feel links in to the first 2 points, I want to keep his as comfortable within himself as possible and not deliver avoidable blows to his confidence which will then knock on to toileting issues. If we end up taking steps backwards with toileting it affects so many other things, if he gets constipated he wets more. Soiling might not be obvious to his classmates but wetting is. When he is constipated his behaviour becomes pretty terrible and we end up with a stressed bundle of fury.

Sorry this is long, any help would be absolutely wonderful.

OP posts:
Indith · 18/04/2011 16:13

please?

OP posts:
GiddyPickle · 18/04/2011 16:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phenikz · 18/04/2011 16:52

I am not very well versed in this system, but have you given a thought about exceptional health or social needs? About Special Educational Needs? A few of the things you describe about your DS taken together might be an early indication of some SEN. Maybe you might want to talk to your GP about Aspergers or something like this and check whether it is worth referring your child for assessment.

Indith · 18/04/2011 17:45

Thank you. I'll get on to nursery and GP about toilet issues. I agree that the other things are pretty feeble, I think it is jsut that they combine with the toileting issues to place more stress on the whole situation.

OP posts:
itsabiggywhatdoidonow · 18/04/2011 18:08

tuff, if you want him to go to catholic school become a catholic.

prh47bridge · 18/04/2011 18:10

What is the admission number at your preferred school and how big are the infant classes (i.e. Reception, Y1 and Y2)? From your comments I presume they are well below 30? If that is the case you stand a reasonable chance of winning your appeal.

I would agree with GiddyPickle that point 4 is your strongest argument, especially if you can get medical evidence to support your case. You need any letter from your GP or consultant to say, "I have examined Indith's son and in my opinion..." or something similar. If it says "Indith tells me..." it won't help you as the panel will think he is simply repeating your view rather than giving proper independent advice.

Point 2 is your next strongest if used in conjunction with point 4, i.e. this is another aspect of the same issue.

I don't think point 3 will help you as, in theory at least, all schools should be able to cope.

It won't do any harm to mention point 1 but I doubt it will sway the panel. I'm afraid that is the kind of argument they hear all the time and, in the absence of expert evidence to show your son has a particular problem, they are likely to ignore it.

Get some good expert evidence to back you up on point 4 and go for it.

Indith · 18/04/2011 18:19

Wording of the letter is useful, thank you. They give 12 spaces. The past couple of years there has just been one appeal and they have got in (in at least one case it was just that they wanted that school because it was better Grin although I expect they thought of something else to appeal on!). This year I know there are at least 2 other parents appealing which makes be nervous but then again a few years ago 8 appealed and all got in. The headmistress doesn't like turning people away!

OP posts:
Panelmember · 18/04/2011 18:22

Ok, here goes. This will be long, so apologies in advance.

As you'll know if you've been reading the other threads, appeals for reception admissions can be very hard to win. Much depends on the admission number (PAN) for the school: if the school admits in multiples of 30, then the infant class size regulations -which limit the class size in KS1 to 30 - will apply and you will only win at appeal if you can show that a serious error has been made which has deprived your child of a place.

You mention class sizes. What are the class sizes at the Catholic school and at the school you've been allocated? You imply that the class size at the Catholic school is less than 30 - is that so? If the class size in reception/KS1 is less than 30 that will leave you with a lot more scope for arguing that your child should be admitted.

What are the admissions criteria for the Catholic school? Do you have the usual letter detailing why you did not get a place? Does it have some places reserved for children who are not Catholic? Or does it place non-Catholic children in a low priority group in its admissions criteria? This will determine where you are on the waiting list, too. Do you know what position you are on the list?

Have you checked that the decision is factually correct, ie they placed you in the right priority group, measured the distance from home to school correctly, etc?

Looking at your grounds for appeal, I am sorry to say that - unless the infant class size regulations do not apply and the appeal panel gives you the benefit of the doubt - they are weak.

Unless your child is sociallly anxious to the point of having a recognised special need, the 'wants to be with his friends' argument will cut no ice. Reception class is all about social interaction and the teacher will be well used to helping children settle in and make friends. Likewise, any competent reception teacher will be able to ascertain which children are on the point of reading and writing and which are at an earlier stage and will provide the necessary support and differentiation. The same goes with the class size argument. Realistically, unless your child's needs are so far outside the normal range (a range of needs that any school should be capable of meeting) that he is already receiving support from a paediatrician/therapist/as appropriate, then the appeal panel is likely to take the view that any school could and should be able to meet his needs.

The last point is about the wetting/soiling. I agree that this is probably your strongest argument but (to be frank) have no idea what an appeal panel would make of it. As far as I know, very many primary schools call parents in to deal with a child who has soiled. The policy of the county school (whatever one might think of it) isn't unusual. In what way is the catholic school's policy different? If you want to make any headway with this argument, you will need a letter from a GP/consultant/other health care professional explaining what the problem is and stating that in their professional opinion (not just in yours) your child's needs would be met at the Catholic school in a way they wouldn't at the county school. If you can highlight differences in their published policies, so much the better.

I am sorry to be so discouraging, but if this is an infant class size appeal, you have to demonstrate that the decision was made in error or was so unreasonable that it should be overturned. None of the social/health/pastoral arguments would come into play. I can understand your disappointment, but nothing you've said so far makes me think you have any realistic chance of winning. BUT things would be more promising if the admission number isn't a multiple of 30, the infant class size regulations don't apply and you can argue that the prejudice (ie disadvantage) to your child of not going to the school is greater than the prejudice to the school of admitting another pupil. You might then find that the panel would be open to persuasion on the social/health/pastoral arguments.

Lastly, do you think there is any possibility that your son does have special needs, as Pheniks suggests? Where a child with special needs is admitted outside the usual admissions round, they can be admitted as an additional pupil, as an exception to the infant class size rule.

Panelmember · 18/04/2011 18:24

Prh47bridge got there first while I was still doing my two-fingered typing. Blush

admission · 18/04/2011 19:03

I agree with PRH, go with the issue of wetting /soiling and make a great deal about the caring/ naturing philosophy of the catholic school. It sounds like a school that is actually doing "their own thing" on admissions, which is wrong but just may work to your advantage.
A lot will depend on the numbers situation. With an admission number of 12, presumably they put reception and year 1 together in one class, so providing that they did not go above 30 you have a chance of success.

Indith · 18/04/2011 19:48

Reception is on its own although a few hours a week some of the younger/more behind year 1 children join them then they teach 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 together.

As non-religious of any description we are lowest of the low on the admissions but this has not stopped people getting in before, it just seems to be a very high birth year and all of the good schools were flooded with applications. Usually it isn't too bad in this area as there are a lot of very good primaries around in a cluster of villages.

Well, at least I now have more idea of how to go about things, thank you everyone.

Daft thing is, if it were dd I wouldn't be that bothered and probably wouldn't appeal, the county primary is by no means failing, it just isn't the right place for ds :(

OP posts:
Panelmember · 18/04/2011 19:58

Presumably the Catholic school is its own admission authority? Anyway, it sounds as if it has a fairly open attitude towards admitting on appeal - and infant class size doesn't seem to be an issue here - so go for it!

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