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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Another "didn't get in " !

21 replies

Rowgtfc72 · 17/04/2011 07:31

My dd has been offered second choice school. I'm going to appeal on the grounds that its a two form entry of 45 kids (letter keeps saying 30 class size max ) and its the only primary that offers 3 - 11 education which is why we picked the school in the first place. Any ideas what my chances would be? 'Im waiting to see what other kids get in because we live very close to the school so if they get in I wont be happy ! (all catchment based entries not looked after or siblings) Is there anything else I should mention on my appeal like Sats or Ofsted results ?

OP posts:

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mrz · 17/04/2011 07:59

I'm afraid Ofsted and SAT results aren't grounds for appeal ... distance will probably be your best option good luck

MigratingCoconuts · 17/04/2011 08:36

I'm no expert but from what I have read here, you can only appeal if an error has been made in your allocation, not for any other reason.

Your best bet apppears to be to get on the waiting list and keep ringing weekly to see how you are moving on the list.

kitkat1000 · 17/04/2011 08:38

Hi, is it a religious school? if so are you the same religion? My dd1 is currently in reception in a catholic school and such schools have to serve catchment first and we live slightly outside it - my second DD is unlikely to get in next year (despite being in their pre-school) because of the high number of siblings within the catchment applying (so i will have 2 in 2 diff schools!). There is no rule about them having other religions in - parish comes first - as it should i think as i would go mad if a CofE got in my daughters school above my DD2 as a catholic! Usually in non church schools, siblings come before area so it may have been a high sibling intake. As someone else said, you are unlikely to win an appeal in reception but i do know that most schools lose appeals after y2 (as they can then take more than 30) therefore if my DD2 ends up in a diff school i will transfer her 2 years later (rubbish i know but its the only catholic school).

If the school offered has to move up for juniors - surely that wont be an issue as they will all move together??? Do they feed to the same high school?

MY DD1 went to her school knowing noone - not even stepped foot in the school before as we didn't think she'd get in and she loves it and was fine after a week Good luck!

kitkat1000 · 17/04/2011 08:39

i posted this in your previous feed too hence included other details!

kitkat1000 · 17/04/2011 08:43

i think their limit of 45 relates to size and facilities of the school?

MigratingCoconuts · 17/04/2011 08:56

and if that was the agreed number as part of the process, its hard to see how you can really argue against it.

Panelmember · 17/04/2011 09:27

The PAN (ie intake) of 45 almost certainly means that there are mixed-year classes, so that 15 from one year group are with 15 from another, creating classes of 30. This is something you can easily check.

If the classes are 30, then infant class size regulations will apply and you are only likely to win your appeal if you can show that there has been an error which has deprived your child of a place - such as placing you in the wrong admissions category or measuring the distance to school incorrectly. What are the school's oversubscription criteria? Why did you not get a place (this should be spelt out on the letter from the LEA)?

SATs and Ofsted reports have no bearing at all on appeals. You cannot appeal on the grounds that "this school isn't good enough for my child". If you can tell us more about the school and the reasons you did not get a place, there may be other things we can suggest but, on the information available so far, you would do better to get on the waiting list

Original poster

Rowgtfc72 · 17/04/2011 18:19

Letter just said due to over-subscription, didn't qualify what . Going to ring appeals board tomorrow and find out what I can. The school isn't the best in my catchment area, just the one which offers primary education from 3 - 11, something I like and the reason I sent my dd there in the first place.I wrongly assumed living about for hundred metres away we would get in on catchment. Lots of dds friends live in the other direction away from the school so will be interesting to see how they get on .

OP posts:

Rosebud05 · 17/04/2011 19:28

Before ringing the appeals board, you could check the admissions criteria for your LEA eg is it looked after children, SEN, siblings, distance or are there specified 'catchments? It sounds like it might be that your are too far away this year. Your LEA should be able to tell you how far they measured your dwelling as from the school and also how far the last place offered on distance was. They have be able to give you a provisional idea of where you are on the waiting list, though will need all confirmed/declined places and second chance offers to tell you concretely. This will give you an idea of your chances of getting in through the waiting list.

hocuspontas · 17/04/2011 19:34

There must have been a lot of siblings in catchment this year as living 100m from the school I can't imagine there are a lot of children who live closer.

admission · 17/04/2011 19:38

If it is a community school and you are only 100 metres from the school and you are in catchment zone, then I would have expected you to have been offered a place unless sibling is a priority and there are many siblings.
So you need to establish what criteria you were put in and where you are on the waiting list so that you can decide what to do.
If the school has an admission number of 45, then the usual class organisation is for two classes of 22 and 23 in reception and then three classes of 30 across year 1 and year 2. That makes the admission appeal an infant class size regs case based on future prejudice relating to the 3 classes of year 1 and 2. As such the only realistic way to win an appeal is to prove that there was a mistake made around your application. Your reasons of 3-11 primary, SATs etc will not have any bearing on the outcome of the appeal, which is why you need to establish the reasons behind you not being offered a place

Rosebud05 · 17/04/2011 19:58

I think the OP meant 400 hundred metres away...

Original poster

Rowgtfc72 · 18/04/2011 13:02

Sorry, yes, 400 metres away. Have just rung education authority who informed me we don't live in the catchment area by twelve houses! She also said we were sixth on the waiting list and not to hold our breath at getting in. Am still appealing but looks like were moving schools ! Thanks for all your advice.

OP posts:

mrz · 18/04/2011 13:05

400 metres away and not in catchment? are you on a boundary?

prh47bridge · 18/04/2011 13:47

If you are only 400m away I am surprised you didn't get in, but it depends on the school's admission criteria. Which school are we talking about?

Original poster

Rowgtfc72 · 18/04/2011 18:31

Elliston Primary in Cleethorpes. It would appear we are on the very edges of the boundary so some of dds classmates although living further away are in and we are not. Doesn't seem fair to me. Dithering now over whether to appeal or not. Seems pretty pointless if were not even in the catchment area or can we challenge that ?!

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 18/04/2011 20:59

As far as I can see the admission criteria used by Lincolnshire are as follows:

A Looked after children
B Siblings
C Children of the faith (faith schools only)
D Children for whom it is the nearest school
E Other children

Distance is the tie breaker. Distances are the shortest driving distance along public highways.

I presume your daughter should have been in category D or E. Classmates living further away could have got in if they have siblings at the school or if they are actually closer to the school measured by driving distance. They could also have got in if your child was placed in category E whilst they were in category D. However, if they were in the same category as your daughter and were further away by driving distance that would indicate that a mistake has been made.

The questions you need to ask the council:

In which admissions category was your daughter placed for this school?

If she was placed in category E and you would have expected her to be in category D, which school do Lincolnshire regard as her nearest school? If she is in the wrong category that would be a mistake.

What is the measured distance from your home to the school and what route did they use? If you can find a shorter route using public highways that means they may have made a mistake.

What was the distance for the last child admitted and which category were they in?

admission · 18/04/2011 22:38

PRH, Cleethorpes is in North East Lincs, who have a different admission criteria to Lincolnshire, it is
Looked after children - children in public care.
4.2 Living in the catchment area.
4.3 Having brothers or sisters who are already at the school when your child is due to start there.
4.4 The last factor is geographical. We will give priority to those living nearest to the school (if there is more than one route, the distance measured is the shortest available safe route for pedestrians), from the front door of the child?s home address (including flats) to the main entrance of the school, using the local authority?s computerised measuring system.

Rowgtfc72 the admisson number is 45, so it will be an infant class size case. You cannot argue that the catchment zone is wrong and to win at appeal you need to show a mistake has been made. From what you have said I am not sure any mistake has been made. Did you apply for your catchment school and did you get an offer of a place there? If not then you might be argue that the catchments for the two schools are unreasonable as the nearest school is not classed as the catchment school and the current catchment school is too far away to get in.

prh47bridge · 19/04/2011 00:28

Oops. My mistake. Sorry.

In that case the only question that might lead to evidence of a mistake is what route they have used to calculate the distance from your house to the school. It is sometimes possible to show that there is a shorter safe route than the one used by the LA.

Original poster

Rowgtfc72 · 19/04/2011 12:52

Yes we got an offer from what they are telling me is our catchment school, however Elliston seemed to think we were in their catchment. Walking to school, Elliston is slightly nearer than the school we were offered but not significantly so. Am still appealing as you never know !

OP posts:

admission · 19/04/2011 23:06

You need to look up the LA information for the catchment zones very carefully and check before the appeal date exactly which catchment zone you actually are in.
Do you have anything in writing from Elliston saying you are in area for them? If so that could be introduced as giving you wrong information that given rise to increased expectations of being offered a place. Still not good reasons but grasping at straws a bit.

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