Primary private vs secondary private education

[Beth1234]

Hi there,

I can afford, either primary or secondary private education for my child. I'm totally confused as to whether to chose to educate my child privately in primary or in secondary. Will really appreciate your thoughts/ views & mainly experience on which is better to privately educate?

Many thanks
Beth

why did you dsis stall at grammar when you would have thought that grammar would have been as challenging as priv secondary?

message to rabbitstew by the way!

State secondary was aimed at children who had been through state primary - it therefore assumed a lower starting level of knowledge and skills than was the case for dsis. What she didn't realise was how rapidly bright children can catch up - but by the time she did, she'd got used to daydreaming and reading a book under her desk and found it hard to re-engage. Maybe it was also a bit of a rude shock to realise that, whilst she was one of the brightest, she wasn't actually the brightest, despite the initial advantage.

does even the grammar start at a lower level than a priv secondary do you think? despite the fact that they are all supposed to be a lot brighter than average?

Plenty of (ie most) perfectly good state primaries don't teach French and Latin and don't separate out history, geography, drama, biology, chemistry, CDT etc, into formal lessons. The style of teaching can be completely different and the skill sets equally different (depending on the schools, of course). You may well therefore perceive yourself to be well ahead of your peers coming from a private school to a state school and observing them struggling with a new language, having to separate out in their minds academic subjects which have previously been mixed together, etc, without realising how quickly the skills you have been practising for years can actually be acquired relatively quickly by an intelligent 11-year old with good foundations to work from.

its a really good point that I dont think many think about... why do you think it would be necessarily different in private secondary...? and therefore are you saying private secondary better than state secondary, even a grammar?

Thank you Rabbit stew, a very clever email :o).

My head has ll this time been a bit of a whirlwind but now a MASSIVE THANKS to you all, making a decision on this topic is much more easier.

Lots of luv

Beth xxx

ohmydear, I don't personally think it will necessarily be different in private secondary. I did extremely well from my state education - Oxbridge degree and parents with a bit of spare cash (not spent on private education) to help me onto the housing ladder. I was given every opportunity as a result of my degree to enter any field of work that interested me - I never perceived any barriers. However, if the state secondary choices in my area were poor, I would be very happy to have enough cash to enable my children to avoid them. If I were feeling particularly manipulative, I might also pay for a private education for my children in order for them to be surrounded by people from the sorts of professional background I not-so-secretly hoped they would be attracted to themselves - tempting them, by osmosis, to make very middle class choices in their careers and giving them the contacts and knowledge to know how to pursue them. Making the route through to the most prestigious of the middle class professions an easy one increases the chance of the route being followed. The risk, otherwise, is that they are more likely to make choices I secretly disapprove of... (Cynical, moi?).

I've just read your long post rabbitstew. It honestly never occurred to me to view my ds's education in terms of 'the best' or 'good enough'. It's quite a different perspective.

I've always viewed education as maximizing potential, which has nothing to do with 'the best' etc. My hope is that by sending ds to a school that should enable him to fulfill his potential he will enjoy his schooling. It is easier to assess the right school at secondary level compared to starting off in reception. However ds is in yr 2 and I think I have a very good idea of what school suits his personality and ability, which I didn't have when he was in reception. His school have also been good at suggesting which direction he should take (even though that will mean him moving from that school).

I guess it depends how much intervention you need to maximise a child's potential and in which directions you wish that potential to be maximised. Private schools maximise a very middle class view of potential. You could argue that a child will find it harder to reach their true potential if they are pushed and advised too much from a very early age - they will just reach the potential that they have been told to reach.

Going back a few posts, I do think a lot of private school parents have a somewhat misinformed view of state schools (and no doubt vice versa). but this 'private schools work at least one year ahead of state' thing, where does this stat come from? If you're going by reading ages or nat curriculum, then what you're reading about is averages therefore a good chunk of state school kids are also working at way beyond these levels too. My ds has reading age of something like 10, and is supposedly working at yr4 levels in yr2. But he's absolutely not exceptional in any way, in fact his cohort are v similar. If he were in private school I might take this as evidence of superiority of system, as it is I take it as evidence of kids working at different levels.
Going back to op, my brothers were priv educ all way, me just secondary. I was one who went Oxbridge despite the fact that one of them is far brighter than me. Not v scientific, but if I was paying for one or other I'd save the money for secondary (sneaking in to good state sixth form).

I wondered about that stat. too, Polly, it is one I have seen on a thread before and I think it was challenged then as well.

rabbitstew - the reason I love my DS's prep school is that he is encouraged to develop independence of thought, not pushed or advised too much, but actively encouraged to make his own choices.

It's not famous or super-selective, so perhaps that's the difference.

Ds's school say the same 2 yrs ahead rubbish. I can't see any difference between him and his state school friends. What I do notice though is the breadth of the curriculum since they are unfettered by NC requirements. They have the time to do some things in more depth. There is also a self confidence that I don't always see in state schools but of course there are exceptions to this. I've always thought the pupils at ds's school are very polite and confident but the pupils of a school we visited recently were in a different league. I couldn't imagine ever being that self assured!

Self-assured and confident is great. When we looked around primary schools (both sorts) I noticed that the children in the one we chose were happy and excited to talk to unknown adults (us) about their work, spoke up confidently and politely. Now I can see why - they are treated with respect and given a lot of responsibilities, and always encouraged to speak in public (through assemblies, delegations, drama, etc).

MolliO, you made me smile with your description of the school you went to visit recently - I wonder if some of their ex-pupils end up being the overly entitled, rude adults that tend to surface at the weekend in the area where I live
Balance is good in most things

Elibean, that's great to hear that you saw the confidence in kids in a state primary. V v impressive to know that they also are treated with respecr and given a lot of responsibilities and that it's not only the case in Private Primary. xxx

i have 3 sisters and between us we have experienced all state, mix of state primary/private secondary and all private

we all pretty much got the same grades

we all have had similar success in our careers

it really is down to the family support / family expectations rather than schools you know. obviously a crap school is not helpful, but don't overestimate the influence the school actually has.

Agree totally with amidaiwish. It is deffo down to family support ,expectation
Private primary schools do have a wider curriculum, e.g they have French.
My dc's go to a very good state school and i personally believe that private primary is a waste of money. My dc's attend many after school activities, including French, so if i decided to opt fpr private secondary, my children will not be behind,
With regards to children being self assured etc surely that is down to parenting. My dc' s are very confident children and that is because of parenting.
People do tend to overestimate what private primary schools can offer.

my DC are in a good state primary.

Still, I am moving them to private soon.

In DS1 year are 35 children, 3 of which are seriously disruptive and agressive. Two of them are not being taught, but play board games together, shouting abuse when they lose. This is quite distracting to the other kids.

Another one has some kind of disorder which means he sometimes loses the plot and punches other kids in the face.

My DS has been punched in the face (hard), entirely unprovoked (he is gentle and quiet) a few times, and the school have asked us for patience and understanding for these kids. Which I have had, so far, but last week he was punched in the eye for eating his food out of a red lunch box (this kid gets upset when he sees red things apparently, that is his "thing")

So much for the real world, and "real" people. It;s easy to rave about having to deal with a variety of children if there is no violence.

Can he go into a "bubble" somewhere nice please. I'll pay for the privilege.

Sorry if I am bitter, but I was SO positive about state school before.

When I was looking I visited three state primaries. In two we were shown round by the head. In one by the pupils. The pupils' one was lovely but the pupils were very shy and struggled to know what to say. The head at that school didn't know the names of the pupils showing me round despite her being there for two years.

At the other two, one the pupils didn't engage at all with the visitors or the head. At the one state school I really liked the pupils were lovely and the head was inspiring but the lack of wraparound care ruled it out.

I don't think ds is in a bubble at all at school. He is aware that he is incredibly privileged. The school take an active part in the local community and do a lot of fund raising. He mixes with a wide range of children outside school, all of whom seem exactly the same as him. Not sure if that is the norm or is because we live in a wealthy area (but are too poor to live in the catchment area of the two good state primaries near us).

Bullying and bad behaviour also exists in private schools too. Not always well dealt with either. I know of at least two cases in different schools were bullying was ignored until a number of parents threatened to withdraw their dcs. The initial threat of one child being withdrawn had no impact and that only changed once the bully broadened his target.

Chandon , that is not a good primary school . Bullying occurs in ALL schools. I n your case the head failed to deal with the problem, that is not the case in ALL state schools.
When i was younger, i took a gap year and worked in a school in the Ivory Coast. There were over sixty children in the class and i never witnessed any bad behaviour by any of the students

Secondary. It edcuated 7% of children and gets 50% of the best university places and makes up the vast majority of most of the position so power in the UK. Also teenagers follow the herd and do what their peers do. most of the country has no state grammars. If 99% of your class are going to go on the dole or do a useless degree at an ex poly or become hair dressers you might well follow that lead. If 99% go to Oxbridge or Russell group universities then you are likely to follow them there.

Xenia , i wondered when you would come out of the woodwork.

I agree that a lot is down to family support - kids who have it will probably do well in most schools.

At the same time, I see kids who don't have much family support gaining confidence as they move through the dds' school - many of them seem wobbly (self-esteem-wise) at Reception age, but I'm sure a combination of all sorts of practices - eg different ages being paired together at times, rituals to acknowledge important steps, respect, loads of practice at public speaking and easy access to the Head and deputies as well as their own teacher whenever they have problems/successes to share, all help.

It probably also helps, come to think of it, that the school seeks to support and include entire families - not just the children - wherever possible. If the community is stronger, the families gain, and so the children gain.

Sadly, its not always enough - but I've seen some amazing turn-arounds in families, starting but not ending with the children.

Also agree with what MollieO says (again!). I went to private school - there were some less than ideal things going on there, and also children with very unsupportive families who didn't do well in spite of the school. It works both ways.

I've also seen some state primaries (highly rated) that I wouldn't have chosen for dds, for similar reasons as experienced by Mollie on her visits.

I think we are very lucky in our choice of local primaries generally, in our area (not secondaries, yet, sadly). But when I looked around: one (private) we were not shown around by the Head, we did not meet any children, we saw many of the facilities, and were told by the Head in the speech she graciously gave at the end of the tour that children with special needs (eg dyslexia) would be found places at other schools, since they didn't have the facilities to deal with them. Another (private) was nice, friendly, but sort of bland. Another (state) had excellent resources, and would probably have been fine, but I didn't warm to the Head at all - and he kept pointing out how well behaved the children were. Again, we met no children - bar one, but at least he knew that one's name.
The one we chose was the one where the Head gave us her time, where the children ran across the playground to tell her things (she knew all their names, their families, and what was going on in their lives), they opened doors for us, we were shown into the classrooms and invited to chat with the children - who were excited and confident, telling us about their work with pride. The classrooms were a bit small and crowded, the buildings were shabby, but there was a huge outdoor area and the people were lovely.