Another question about Appeals

[MiraNova]

Just found out that DS hasn't got a place at our preferred school. Admission criteria is:

1. Looked after children
2. Exceptional arrangements
3. siblings
4. children for whom the school is nearest
5. any other applicant.

In the event of oversubscription priority will be given on the basis of nearness to the school. (as crow flies).

We live in a rural area, and for 2010, the spread was:

1. 0
2. 0
3. 4
4. 5
5. 14

We live just outside the parish boundary of our nearest school, which is a Voluntary Aided (C of E) school (STJ), and according to their admission criteria we come into No 8 (as we don't live or worship in the parish).

The CC website states this "Out of county, Grammar & Voluntary Aided Schools (Catholic and Church of England) will not generally give priority to local children and therefore will not be taken into account when assessing under the nearest school criteria. And indeed last year this school was over-subscribed.

Our second nearest school (STM), is the one we put as first preference - on the assumption that this would be our "nearest school" for the purposes of the admission policy. My DDs also went there, and our son attends the adjacent pre-school so that he would make friends to go onto school with.

To our surprise (particularly given the numbers last year) we have been offered our 3rd choice - which is the Voluntary aided school above - STJ.

I suspect the "nearest school" criteria hasn't been applied in our case. If this is so - and I presume I will be able to check shortly - would this be grounds for an appeal?

I know things like childcare and friends made at pre-school don't hold any weight, but we only made those decisions based on the admission criteria on the website, and the expectation we would get a place at STM. Both DH and I work, and our childminder only picks up from STM (and adjacent pre-school).

Any guidance/advice gratefully received...

I have to disagree with GiddyPickle. This does sound like your son may have been wrongly categorised.

If I understand you correctly, the admission criteria state that VA schools will not be counted when determining your nearest school and that, taking this into account, your first choice was your nearest school. However, it isn't clear whether you were considered in category 4 or category 5. Despite the figures last year, it is possible that there were enough children in categories 1-4 this year to mean that not all of the category 4 children got in. However, if they have placed you in category 5 it would appear that a mistake has been made which is grounds for a successful appeal.

I would ask the council to confirm which category your son was placed in and ask them which school they class as your nearest school. That should tell you whether or not a mistake has been made.

I personally do not like the criteria "for whom it is the nearest school" because everybody can get into a tangle with the distances. At least in this case it is straight line distance, so should be easier to measure.

As PRH says you need some more information from the LA as to whether you are in category 4 or 5. If you are in category 4, then you need information about the numbers that got in and the distance that the last pupil was admitted. If you are 5 then you need to know what has been counted as your nearest school and the distance to it. The figures for 2010 show only a few pupils for which STM was nearest school, so whilst it is possible i would be surprised if there has been a massive increase in siblings and category 4 pupils.

As such there are two potential answers, the LA has made a mistake in which case you have a very good case to go to appeal with. However I wonder whether you are correct as to whether STM is your nearest school on a straight line measurement. As you put STJ as third preference there is presumably at least one more school some where reasonably local. Is it possible that this is actually the nearest school? Or is there another school in another Local authority that is nearer?

Thanks for all your responses - yes we want to go to our first choice school which is actually our second nearest. I find it really hard to believe that there would be a massive increase in siblings (it's an infant school so Reception, Y1 and Y2 - with one class in each year, and a PAN of 25), and there are not many, if any, new houses as far as I'm aware, So I think they have mis-categorised us under criteria 5, instead of 4. This school is also our parish school.

Our second choice school is in another nearby village, and is further than both our 3rd choice and 1st choice.

It's important to us, because my son is quiet by nature, with much older siblings. We sent him to the parish pre-school because we felt it would be the best way for him to feel comfortable and confident when going up to infant school. Children from the pre-school generally go to either STM (our first choice), or to our second choice school, but not to our 3rd choice.

Had the admission criteria been different, and we had felt he would get into our nearest school - then we would have sent him to the pre-school in that village, so that he could have made the friendships there.

I will try ring the County Council tomorrow to find out how they've allocated the places. Is there any chance they'll just admit a mistake and admit us, or will we have to go through the Appeal process?

If they have made a mistake they are supposed to admit your son without an appeal, but I'm afraid many councils ignore that and insist that you go through an appeal anyway.

As the PAN is 25 you would have a reasonable chance at appeal even if no mistake has been made. You would have to show that the prejudice to your son through not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school through taking an extra pupil.

A friend has got in from 1.6 miles away, and she has 6 closer schools to her (she lives in the town). We are 1.7 miles, so I am sure they have not excluded the VA school.

Thanks for your help - it is really appreciated.

The evidence you have would suggest a mistake having been made but you need to find out all the details to establish exactly what the mistake was. If they have included the VA school then there are potentially quite a few pupils who will be in the same situation as you. As that does not seem to be the case, I suspect there is another reason to do with another school.

With a PAN of 25 any appeal will not be infant class size which is to your advantage but you really should not need to go to appeal if a mistake has been made.

so I spoke to the council today. They say that the statement about Voluntary Aided Schools not being taken into account when assessing distance criteria, does not apply to STJ because it accepts "local children". This was marked by 3 * next to the school name in the brochure, with the key "admits local children" at the top of the table.

STJs admission criteria is:

1 LAC.
2 Exceptional arrangements.
3 Children having a sibling & for whom STJ is the nearest school.
4 Children resident and who regularly worship in the Parish of A or B
5 Children resident in the Parishes of A or B.
6 Children having a sibling & for whom STJ is not the nearest school.
7 Children resident outside the Parishes of A and B and worshipping regularly
with other churches or faiths.
8 Children resident outside the parishes of A and B

We live in Parish C, and would come under criteria 8. I would plan to say that the "local children" caveat applies to children living in the Parishes of A and B, but not C - would that stand up?

Although STJ is our nearest school, it is actually far easier for us to get to STM because of the roads. We cannot walk to either school, as have no pavements and live in a 40mph zone.

I know that in 2009 that 6 children under Criteria 5 did not get in to STJ initially. 2 eventually got places and I believe the other 4 were all offered STM.

In 2009 we needed to make a pre-school decision in preparation for DS. I was very keen to ensure he made friends that would go on with him to school, to the extent that we currently pay for a childminder and for the pre-school on top. Given the admission situation at STJ, and that STM had always been undersubscribed, is our parish school, and the one we felt suited our son best we went for the pre-school adjacent to STM. We are active in our parish community - I am on pre-school committee for example.

Current situation is that because of the geographic situation (hilly), there are children in the town who are 1.4 miles as the crow flies, but who are 4.2miles walking/driving distance, who take priority over us at 1.7 miles in the same parish. Those in the town have this school as their 7th or 8th nearest school - surely there is an argument here that the policy is unfair, and discriminates against those living in rural areas vs the town?

Another thought I had for appeal reasons was that DS sleepwalks - more so when stressed. Clearly moving to a school where he knows no-one will be much more stressful than going to STM - is this a viable point?

Sorry lot of questions I know, but keen to understand which arguments would hold most weight, and which won't wash at all!

Oh, and there is another parent in exactly the same situation, who has not got into STM because STJ is closer, but who has been offered the school we put as second choice (further away)

Hi MiraNova

I know only too well your heartache at not gaining your 1st choice school. As well as taking into account the Sibling Rule, its then distance. In our area the sibling count has been so high in past years that not all the 60+ siblings could attend the same school as older brothers & sisters - leaving siblings at other schools.

The only way that you would have possibly gained entrance into your 1st choice school would have been in there were less local children (say 40) requesting one of the (say 60 places). Unless you literally live on the door step of the school you really want them to go to then chances are you won't be given your choice.

For almost 5yrs we've been trying to get our eldest of 3 boys into a local School. It got to a point where we have sold and moved house just for the schools - heartbreaking. Even so I have one child in local school, my youngest will start at same school in September yet my eldest child has to be driven 6 miles away to a school in another borough which is complete madness considering we can walk other other sons to school.

As for the Stress aspect of appealing, unbeknown to us our eldest has a rare condition (one of the Autistic spectrums) when we appealed for his reception year we said the same thing, being sensitive, not keen on change etc. Since then we've had letters from Consultant Specialists supporting a move to our local school, but even that has been rejected. And this is a child who is so stressed by long car journeys (a good 30 - 40 mins in car from home to school) and being away from friends that he regularly eats his finger nails and tops of fingers, cries, regularly gets mouth ulcers. Appealing is very hard, but if you really want to go down that route get a lawyer to help build a case.

Hope sincerely hope your appeal is successful.

Debbie

Sorry I've just read you last message about hills etc. Like you the school that our eldest son goes to is something like 1.8 mile as the crow flies, however as there is a canal between us and the school the journey is 6 miles...... Distances don't count hills, rivers, private no through estates - it's as the crow flies and that is their rules.

As for discrimination, our son won a prize, part of the prize was for the head teacher to chauffeur him and 3 friends to school. However this part of the prize was dropped, why? Because the headteacher felt driving the 6 miles to our home was too far! I rest my case, the head thinks we are too far away yet admissions feel this is fine.

Really do wish you good luck, what is needed is every school to be equally as good as one another, then the stress of our children going to inadequate schools would be removed and there would be a lot more happier parents at this time of year.

Most distances aren't measured "as the crow flies" but by suitable walking route, so excluding unlit alley ways etc.

Debbie - what a nightmare situation for you, I hope you get it resolved soon.

mummytime - we're in Surrey, and the standard measurement is "Please note that the way we measure the distance from home to school is by straight line, from the address point of the pupils house, as set out by Ordnance Survey, to the nearest school gate available for pupils to use." I would love it to be suitable walking route, as it would mean we would have got in.

Ours is measured as the crow flies, from front door to front door. Pain in the neck (for us). We're closer to the widely used (more often than the front) back entrance of the school. Grr.

The distance being a straight line distance is always going to throw up a level of anomalies because of hills, rivers or train lines but is generally in my opinion a better way of measuring a distance measurement which is not normally able to be queried.
I think that you have a case to ask the panel how they believe that STJ is taking local children, when it excludes local children with no religous belief in parish C. I would argue that the admission criteria for STJ are exactly the same as any other VA school in the area, so they cannot be taking local children with no religous affiliation.

Hi - Have similar issue- advice gratefully received -

Have twin girls. We have not got in on either of our first two preferred schools - No 1 option 0.7miles and def closest school - all other children in the road have gone there - spoke to LA today - 33 siblings and 27 others closer admitted - we missed by 200m's!
Place offered at 3rd choice - fine -but Catholic - which we aren't - not worried about that but having looked into secondary schools feeling very concerned - our non denominational secondary schools all have normal admissions policies - siblings/ kids in care etc but all have feeder schools too - none of which are the Catholic junior school. We have Catholic secondary school but stipulates on admissions - must be baptised - help- we will be stuck at age 11 - futhermore children will have friends who will presumably mainly go to Catholic secondary school - Can I appeal on basis of distance - 1st choice def closest - + offered choice 1.5miles further - and historic situation in that normally we would fall within catchment?

MiraNova - I agree with Admission that you can argue that Surrey have got their admission criteria wrong. They have left your son without priority at any school. You don't get priority at STJ because you aren't in parish A or B and you don't get priority at STM because Surrey don't class it as your nearest school. Given the general thrust of Surrey's admission arrangements it seems to me that you should have priority at STM. Your argument therefore is that Surrey's admission arrangements fail the fairness test and if they had been fair your son would have been admitted to STM.

I took a quick look at Surrey's website last night and found it remarkably opaque. The published admission arrangements simply say you get priority if it is your nearest school and don't seem to mention the exclusion for out of county, Grammar and VA schools at all. Indeed, they actually say that the nearest school may be outside the county boundary, a statement which is repeated in the Primary School Admissions 2011/12 booklet, which seems to contradict the information you have. I also failed to find a definitive list of VA schools which count when considering which is the nearest school. I have found a document "Information on Primary Schools for 2011/12" which marks the relevant schools with 3 asterisks, but you have to refer to the Primary School Admissions booklet to find the significance of the asterisks to the admission criteria. This booklet merely says that the schools concerned admit local children. The Primary School Admissions booklet also says that different criteria with respect to the nearest school category apply to children applying for free transport and refers you to question 29. Question 29 is actually about SEN children! Question 30 seems to be the relevant one but, having read that question, I can't see how applying for free transport affects the nearest school part of the admission criteria.

You could suggest to the panel that you have been disadvantaged by the lack of clarity in Surrey's arrangements in that you assumed that your son would get priority for STM and this influenced your decision on where to send him to pre-school. I don't think this is an overly strong argument in itself but it can't do any harm to bring the lack of clarity to the panel's attention. Parents must be able to understand the admission arrangements from the published information. I am not convinced that the average parent would understand Surrey's arrangements. If parents did understand them properly I'm sure they would be complaining about the fact that some children don't get priority for any school.

Treacle1969 - The Catholic secondary school cannot exclude children who haven't been baptised. I presume you mean that it gives priority to baptised children. The transfer to secondary school is some way off but you could try asking the Schools Adjudicator to consider whether the current admission arrangements are fair to non-Catholic children who end up being allocated to a Catholic primary school.

Based on the information you have posted it seems your preferred school has an admission number of 60. That means any appeal will be heard under infant class size rules which means you should only win if you can show that the LA has made a mistake. The distance argument you suggest is not relevant, I'm afraid, as it doesn't indicate that a mistake has been made. It is just possible you will get a sympathetic panel who will admit your daughters without any evidence of a mistake but it is a long shot.

Admission and prh47bridge - thank you so much for your comments, they are helping me immensly.

The statement about exclusion of VA schools is not in the admission policy but is on their admissions website here - findaschool.surreycc.gov.uk/ on the site they direct you to for school distances.

I read the admissions policy cover to cover, and didn't pick up at all that STJ would be considered our nearest school. I even rang someone at the admissions number a year or so ago, and specifically queried that statement on the link above, and asked for clarification, and got back the pretty unhelpful "it's what it says on the website"!

Another child in our parish has also not got into STM for the same reason, but they plan to go privately I think.

oops sorry link here - findaschool.surreycc.gov.uk/

Just looked at that and can see the statement you mention.

The more conflicting information you can find and present to the appeal panel the better. It certainly can't do your case any harm if you can show that Surrey's admission arrangements are unclear.

The Council's line seems to be - but you have a place at STJ, so what's the problem. Am I right to argue that where I have a place isn't relevant? Now wish I hadn't put it on my list, as it feels like it will weaken my case.

You are. The council's admission criteria are unfair in that they mean your son didn't get priority for any school. If they had been fair you would have had priority for the school you wanted. The fact you have a place at one of your lower preferences is not relevant.

And the fact it was one of your preferences won't weaken your case. It wasn't your first preference. That was STM.