What is going on with ds (4yrs)?

[verybusyspider]

He is great at home and a handful at school - ie disappearing to toilets then filling up every sink and seeing if he can move water from one to the other, not going straight out to lunch but disappearing to the library to read books, not interetsed in drawing or painting at all but will do it at home, barely reads or writes at school but reads a book every evening to me (at home he does stage 3-4 oxford learning tree, school give him 1 or 2 because he can't show them he can do it) just can't seem to understand how his actions would affect people, says his teacher is shouty and the noise gives him a head ache... he's been assessed by ed psyc which said he was different but they are not pursuing it, he had grommets fitted at the beginning of march so can now hear (no speech and language delay though) which for 2 weeks after he was amazing and taking part and now he's back to his 'old' ways

I know they are talking about my child, I totally see how he can be like that, but I don't see the behaviours at home they see at school, yesterday he drew on the table at school and had to see the head - he has never drawn on anything at home, walls nothing, not even out of curiosity. At school things seem to escallate - one 'incident' followed by a few more until he really is in trouble

so what am I missing? ds seems incapable of telling me (maybe he doesn't know or have the language yet) he says he likes school and goes quite happily every day...

Difficult,maybe he is just not emotionally mature enough for school,is he just 4 or nearly 5?He sounds lovely actually,bright,inquisitive but possibly very overwhelmed by the group situation.He also sounds as if he might be finding it a little boring,which maybe why he wanders.Is he tuning into the class teacher,one of my ds found it hard to understand that when the teacher was talking to the whole class that that included him,he assumed that if she wasn't talking directly to him then she must be talking to someone else!

What do school say?

I agreee school can be a bit over whelming for some children -
was he at nursery/pre-school before school - how was he there?
does he have brothers or sisters as i wonder if he is just used to lots of one-to-one time
also some schools and some teachers are not the best for active children especially boys -don't always tune into what works for them - what do you think of the teacher - have you talked to other parents in his class-
and have perhaps over high expectations of behaviour - seeing the head for drawing on the table seems quite harsh to me

Did he use to go nursery or somewhere similar? Basically, has he been attached to you and now that he doesn't have exclusiveness he feels a bit neglected at school? At this age they show aggression and frustration if they think they don't get enough attention as they don't know how to express their feelings.

Our son discipline-wise has no problems but his teacher thought that he was losing confidence. She decided to give him more leading and guiding roles. Maybe you can tell the teacher what he do best and then he can guide the other children while they are doing it e.g. to make a construction.

Also, how can he manage to disappear during lunch times? Don't they supervise them? At this age they should walk together in rows and go for lunch.

he's 5 in May and has 2 younger brothers (3 and 1) so its not like he gets over whelming 1:1 from us but I'm sure his love of reading at home is down to the fact he gets our undivided attention whilst we read to him or he reads to us - not thought about it like that before! He has always found it hard to keep himself entertained and much prefers to be with people and chatting - unless its reading books and then he goes into his own world.

He went to the local preschool last year - its in the class room next to his now, preschool did struggle with him but it turned out he had severe/chronic hearing loss so was fixated on routine and didn't take part as much as they said he should, I think it was his hearing and he is more engaged now he can hear again - I also didn't rate the staff there as it was at a parents suggestion we got his hearing checked and the staff said it was unlikely to be that as they'd never seen it before...
The reception teacher is new and an NQT - she is lovely, very keen to help but inexperienced, I also wonder how much time she is with them as I know NQT's have more non-contact time due to doing observations/training/planning and ds says he doesn't like that - one teacher 100% of the time would have probably suited him better
He had an amazing parents evening last week but we have seriously gone down hill this week

they do walk into lunch in rows but once they have finished he is free to go out by himself and play - he just deviates and goes to read books - he can't pass a book shelf without looking at it, he has to get dressed in our room in the morning otherwise he gets as far as putting his pants on then finds a book to look at

If it is frustration or lack of attention how can I tackle that when I'm not sure what is causing it? I'm at a loss as to how to support him (and teacher) at school, its a small one class entry village school and he is distrupting the class - its so hard to hear every day that he hasn't been doing what he should when I have a very helpful, bright and mostly compilant child at home - yesterday = awful day at school followed by ballet (listened to teacher and took part, said he enjoyed it) then at home helped me lay and clear table and did some work on his easter bonnet for Friday

we talk a lot about rules at school, good listening, good sharing, good sitting and being helpful and kind - what else can I do to get the message across - at the moment its bribary reward of a trip out at Easter if he can join in and be part of the class for the next 6 days left of term..

that is quite a proficient reader for his age, no wonder he is bored being stuck on a much lower stage. My dd is on level 4 and is the only child on this level.

her teacher was recognising dd was finishing her work early and distracting other people and wandering out of class. to keep her at the table she is given extra work. my dd is a little more emotionaly ready and interested. but this is what the teacher should be working on. she should be recognising his achivement how is she recording his learning outcomes and goals. i would request a meeting and discuss how she is evaluting his development and maintaining bounderies.

however i would not be overly worried he is clearly intellegant and thoughtfull and his learning is not suffering, at this age weeks and months can make great difference to maturity.

thats great your dd is doing the work given and then getting more, ds doesn't even do the given work first, if he did I'm sure they would move him on but he needs to show them he can read the first stage so they'll let him have other books, in guided reading on Monday he wasn't allowed to do it because he wanted to read the whole book to everyone not take turns and wouldn't listen so he didn't get to read any of it - do you think with age and maturity he'll understand to think about what the other children want and need to do??

you're right in all this he is learning, thats what amazes me, I'm dsylexic so I find the learning to read thing hard, I'm so used to recognising words I have no idea how you teach it - like tricky words you can't sound out, ds has to tell me to stop getting him to sound out words like 'was' and 'don't' he can do his 'maths' and homework yet seem to not do it at school...

i think the issue is with teacher to be honest she seems to lack some of the stratergies she needs to teach him. i dont honestly think many 4/5 year olds have much understanding of what the other children need in the context of learning. he does have all the skills he should but the difference is at home he is given the oppertunity to use them, where is has quickly learned at school its counter productive, if he isnt going to be given the chance to read hes less likely to be complient. easier said than done with a class full but most guided reading is done in smaller groups so he should be given the time to understand these bounderies.

i would request a meeting with the class teacher and head. do you know who his teacher will next year.

Agree try not to worry too much - but I think a meeting with her is the way forward - and maybe you could get your DS to show her his reading when you are there and bring some pictures he has done at home.

It is rare for school to ask the EP to see a child without serious problems. So it does tell you school are quite worried about him and think his behaviour is not normal for his age.

exactly indigobell but I'm confused she's done 2 observations since Christmas and apparently fed back strategies to teacher and doesn't need to follow it up - ds is on School action (with his own IEP) but when I asked to have him put on School action Plus (which would mean termly not 6 monthly reviews with the SENCO - thats the only difference) due to the ed psyc being involved I was told it wasn't necessary and one more review (next term) would be enough - the previous one was before Christmas when they said they'd like Ed Psyc to come in so I've had no formal review with SENCO since - like I say when I've asked I've been told its not necessary.
We had parents evening last week and came away feeling very positive as class teacher said how much more engaged he was - she spoke too soon as he sounds like he's been a nightmare this week - his behaviour is definitely inconsistant but I don't know what 'triggers' it

Ed psyc saw him before and after grommets were done and did say she had seen an improvement/difference

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle and incredibly stressed (and trying so hard not to get upset) to hear how badly he is doing when I know he has the ability to do so much better

crw1234 ds's learning journal is full of letters to granny and drawings he's done at home because we know he doesn't do it at school, I wish I had the time to go in and read with him at school but if I'm not working I have my 2 littler ones to think of...
I've taken time off to have meetings with the teacher and discuss social stories, talk through the 'rules' etc I'm still not doing a good job though as it doesn't seem to help

Have you tried explaining to him why he needs to show the teacher what he can do.My ds1 wouldn't colour at school for eg.The teacher got quite upset about this.So I asked her why this was important and she explained about pencil control etc,I asked her to expLain this to ds,she clearly thought I was mad but sure enough it did the trick ,once he understood why he was doing it it made more sense.

I hate to say this but he is 17 now and still won't do something just because he is told he is very bright and not a troublemaker but he still doesn't see why the teacher needs to be shown he can do something if be knows himself he can do it!
It sounds to me as if he hasn't made the connection between the reading he does for pleasure and school reading,I think a meeting with the teacher is needed,he sounds rather bored by school to be honest and you need to get to the bottom of why the class teacher Nd he are not making that connection

You mentioned ds having to get dressed in your room, or else he'll just stop and read a book. Is it possible, that you have, over time, made quite a few adjustments to help his behaviour at home? At school they haven't done this (or it is harder to do this with so many other children) so his behaviour is worse. Just wondering because if you'd made these adjustments gradually, you might not have realised?

you're right I think we have 'adjusted' as parents and do what seems to work with all the boys not just ds1, I couldn't tell you what they are though so not sure where to start with letting school know...
ds had good day today and I was reassured by the teacher that all the children are struggling as its the end of term, 3 boys from ds's taken to the head for swinging on toilet cubicals... I'd love to send him in with a secret camera so I could see what he was really like...

verybusy if school have had you son assessed by an EP he should be on School Action Plus already. School Action is when the school can support your child internally, with no outside resources advising them. School Action Plus is when a school seek external resources via the LEA or other eg: an EP for observations and strategy advise. I can't advise you what to do next, except you will know in your gut if your child is 'different' as the EP stated, or if he is just finding school tricky. I would let the school carry on supporting him as they feel he needs it. Sarah is correct in the sense that many parents do adjust and make allowances for their children's behaviour .. we certainly did with our ds and so much, that the ADHD was slapping us in the face and we truly didn't think he was that bad. School however, was a very different story

thanks for all your comments - loads to think about over Easter break x

Just another thought - and this is only my observation - I have known a couple of children with hearing loss - quite late diagnosis and both have had some issues - one - his social skills and behaviour ok but reading and writing awful - other a girl does not seem to able to make friends -otherwise ok I wonder if the hearing loss just means they miss some development stages?
And agree my DS1 in reception is shattered - and we have another week to go
and don't blame yourself too much - sounds like there are a whole lot of factors - including an inexperiened teacher

Hi vbSpider, my DS(5)s story sounds similar to your DSs (tho mine is the same at home as he is at school). His teacher struggles with his behaviour but she's very experienced so has adpated her strategies until she found the ones that work best with him. Perhaps an inexperienced teacher would simply not know all that he/she can do? Not sure how a parent would be able to help except to raise the question of support for the teacher with the headteacher?

Will the school refer him to CAMHS? My route was teacher - school nurse - community paed - CAMHS. I can't stress how supportive and helpful my local CAMHS have been. They have done a raft of diagnostic tests on DS, referred him to scat (autism/aspergers) and ran cognitive tests.

Through the cognitive tests I now know DS is very intelligent. I also know that his social development is behind that of his peers. I don't know yet why his social development is so poor. He may simply be asynchronous development, ADHD, ODD (or others), aspergers or mild autism.

I'm wondering because of the similarities and what you say about his reading it may be worth talking to CAMHS and getting the cognitive test done.

Your son sounds like a lovely bright spark!

If he learns and behaves so much better outside school than in, home education might be a simple solution. You could do it in the long run, or just until he matures a bit and is ready and willing to conform to school expectiations. Do his little brothers go to a childminder while you work? Perhaps he could join them, and then any educational work you want to do with him could be fit in around your work schedule? Some kids do much better with more individual attention than they would get in a large-group environment, so he might get on better with a childminder than he did at preschool or school.

It sounds like your little guy is quite motivated to learn, he thrives when he isn't at school, and you understand him well. So being out of school might be just what he needs at this moment.