Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

Readers, Writers and Extra Time in SATs exams are BAD for the kids

59 replies

IndigoBell · 04/04/2011 13:43

But good for the school league tables.....

(With the exception of physical difficulties that stop a child writing, and a few other cases....)

They're bad for the kids because they stop the school pulling out all efforts to teach the kids, knowing instead that they can rely on readers and writers to boost their SAT grade.

They're bad for the kids because there are no 'readers, writers and extra time' in life. If you can't read or write an awful lot of opportunities are denied to you - no matter what qualifications you possess.

They're bad for the kids because they imply that it doesn't matter if you can't read or write.

They're bad for the kids because no employer is going to be happy if it takes you longer to do the same job as everyone else - no matter what qualifications you possess.

Kids like mine (with Aspergers, dyspraxia and dyslexia) are being given readers and writers instead of being taught properly :(

OP posts:
satreadingmum · 04/04/2011 14:17

Whilst I sympathise with your situation Indigobell, and agree to a certain extent with what you have said, how would you feel as the parent of a very able mathematician who also happened to be a poor reader? Should that child be denied the opportunity to show what they were capable of because of difficulty in reading the questions?

Original poster
IndigoBell · 04/04/2011 14:35

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

I am the parent of a very able mathematician who can't write.

If the markers can't read his exam paper he deserves to fail.

He doesn't need 'an opportunity to show what he's capable of' - he needs to be taught to write.

It is not helpful to him if he gets a good maths mark when nobody can read what he is written.

DS can read but DD can't. If she fails to learn to read by Y6 then yes I want her to fail all her SATs. Even though she is only in Y3 school are already telling me not to worry because she can get a reader in Y6.....

OP posts:
tullip · 04/04/2011 14:46

I think the reading system can be abused. I have been a 'reader' for a number of years. Most of the children have been very capable of reading the paper themselves.

cornsilkily · 04/04/2011 14:48

SATS...I get what you are saying. As far as GCSE goes I don't agree.
tullip how do you think that the system can be abused?

tullip · 04/04/2011 14:58

Children having readers who don't really need them get an advantage over others. Quiet room. One to one. Prompting.

cornsilkily · 04/04/2011 14:59

why don't they really need them?

tullip · 04/04/2011 14:59

Prompting as on focusing.

squidgy12 · 04/04/2011 14:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

tullip · 04/04/2011 14:59

Because they on track with their reading SAT's

cornsilkily · 04/04/2011 15:01

a prompt is not the same as a reader and needs separate permission but a pupil may well have both if they qualify due to their needs.

cornsilkily · 04/04/2011 15:02

you're talking about KS2 then? I'm in GCSE mode! It's getting much harder to get a reader/extra time with KS2 sats

Original poster
IndigoBell · 04/04/2011 15:09

I don't know yet what I feel about GCSEs. But basically I don't think a fistfull of GCSEs compensate for not being able to read.... ( I think I think that it is OK for a child to type their work in a GCSE exam instead of writing...)

I feel the only way to get school to do everything they can is by not allowing them to use readers and writers. Otherwise they'll think they're doing everything - but they won't be.

If DD does not learn to read I think what qualifications she has will be the least of her problems.....

So yes, there are no circumstances under which I'd be happy for DS or DD to have special exam concessions for their KS2 SATS. GCSEs are different, and I don't really know what I think yet.

School aren't abusing the system. The system now believes that children shouldn't be disadvantaged by not being able to read and write Confused.

OP posts:
squidgy12 · 04/04/2011 15:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

squidgy12 · 04/04/2011 15:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

mummytime · 04/04/2011 15:36

I think you do not have any idea what you are talking about! My son could not get extra time at SATs , although he automatically gets it at GCSE. He wrote his own SATs, although then spent time afterwards where someone transcribed from what he said he had written so that it could be read, he wasn't allowed to use a keyboard.

At GCSE, I know I finished my exam papers early, the extra time just allows my son to read the questions. He can read, he can also type, he can also write (although it is slow and looks awful). He has had extra tuition since he was 6, and he is catching up, unfortunately he is still probably 6 years behind in writing, and by the time it could have reached a 16 year old level he will be well in his 20s. His reading is slower, and is spelling is erratic, but improves. However as it takes him far more repetitions to learn, and it is far more tiring for him to learn, he would only achieve that sometime in his 20s or 30s.

On the other hand he is gifted at Maths, and although he struggles with Science writing, he has good scientific understanding.

These accommodations help children who have a lot to offer society, but struggle to prove this in the straight jacket of exams.

FreudianSlippery · 04/04/2011 15:43

I can't really comment on a general scale. Although I'm hoping to teach yr5/6ish in the future so maybe then I'll have more of an opinion :o

But here's my experience, and it makes me agree:

My DSD is dyslexic and although she's not had a vast amount of ongoing help, she did get a reader/scribe for the yr6 SATs. She got good grades (and why not, she is quite clever especially at science).

Went into secondary and we were trying to sort out some new help for her - the school had specifically said on induction day that they would help, in fact this school is quite reknowned locally for the support it gives.

But they wouldn't give her ANY help because her SATs results were too good! Angry

FreudianSlippery · 04/04/2011 15:47

But mummytime, indigobell is specifically talking about SATs, not GCSEs. Of course extra help should be given for GCSEs onwards because those grades stay with you and actually matter. SATs are for the school, not the pupil.

mummytime · 04/04/2011 16:04

But my son couldn't get a lot of help for SATs as the criteria is very strict. For instance he passed one of three tests so wasn't allowed to use a keyboard (for GCSE the guideline is what is normal for that student to access the curriculum).

Admittedly we were "lucky" he did so bad at reading and writing that he automatically got extra support at seniors.

squidgy12 · 04/04/2011 16:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

newnorwich · 04/04/2011 17:13

DS will get extra time, a reader and scribe in his SATs. It's important for him, because his dyspraxia and Asperger's means that he needs extra support in understanding the questions and composing his answers.

It hasn't stopped the school from providing lots of additional support for him - he gets OT, SALT and other sessions with his 1:1 to give him intensive help in reading and writing. The school and I believe that he needs to learn to read and write, but it's not fair to put him on the same playing field in exams because he's still in the process of learning those skills. But his underlying knowledge and abilities are good and he should be allowed to demonstrate that knowledge, without his delay in reading and writing getting in the way.

The OP's school should still be providing support for her DD, including teaching proper reading and writing skills properly. But ime, schools can provide proper teaching as well as offering additional help in exams. The fact that they're willing to provide extra help in exams doesn't mean that they've given up on teaching the children properly - if that's happening, you need to take it up with the school, rather than criticising the exam support system.

Original poster
IndigoBell · 04/04/2011 17:33

My DC are getting a huge amount of extra support from school. My point is kids should all be on the same playing field, and should be allowed to fail, because school should be about preparing for life not preparing for exams.

I would never consider their KS2 SAT grades a reflection of their intelligence. I don't need exams to tell me what they're like.

When kids leave school they won't be on the SEN register and won't get any special considerations. I just want o prepare my kids for life as best I can. And I feel sheltering them behind artificially high grades doesn't help them - it helps the school.

OP posts:
ImNotaCelebrity · 04/04/2011 22:27

'DS will get extra time, a reader and scribe in his SATs. It's important for him, because his dyspraxia and Asperger's means that he needs extra support in understanding the questions and composing his answers.'

A reader should only read the questions aloud, not interpret, discuss or alter them in any way to help comprehension. Either the student understands the question or they don't - the reader cannot help.
A scribe should write only what the student says and is not allowed to alter, improve or interpret it in any way. A scribe should only be allowed if it's usual classroom practice.

goingmadinthecountry · 04/04/2011 22:39

I don't agree, though as the mum of a dyslexic son and a teacher \i know there are many children who are poor readers through poor teaching.

I feel so much for my ds - he really is dyslexic but managed to pass his 11 plus - had no extra time/scribe/anything else. Having the paper printed in purple would have helped him greatly. Still managed to get a decent 128?? or so (can't remember) for VR. The issues have become deeper - his science knowledge is A* standard according to his teacher, but he's predicted Bs. Still not bad (Y9 at the moment) but try telling that to him when he has 2 motivated able older sisters who think of A as a bit of a failure!

He's just been told he'll qualify for 50% extra time or 25% plus a reader at GCSE, can also use a laptop. Seems a huge amount to me. Talk to him and he's bright as anything.

Would love to hear from others with children at a similar stage.

goingmadinthecountry · 04/04/2011 22:45

Just to add, ds got no help with SATS - the fact he managed a 4 at English and 5s for Maths and Science (not that it means anything) meant that had he failed 11+ he would not have got any support at sec school because others would have had greater needs than him. Fine, but it doesn't detract from the fact he's still way behind where he should be in some areas.

Just because he's worked really hard, he'd have been penalised because he was doing too well. What a waste of enthusiasm and ability.

Original poster
IndigoBell · 05/04/2011 06:56

GoingMad - If purple paper helps him - why don't you get him purple tinted glasses?

Have you had his eyesight properly tested by a Behaviour Optometrist

If he's not going to get extra help at secondary school - is getting extra help in his KS2 SATs helpful to him? Sure he would have got better marks. I am nor for one moment disputing that. I am questioning how getting better marks helps kids like mine and yours.

And I am only talkng about KS2 SATs, not GCSEs.

And I'm not talking about dyslexia being caused by bad teaching. I'm talking about severe dyslexia and other disabilities. These kids have left primary unable to read and write. For whatever reason. Despite the best teaching in the world. So how does giving them good grades in their SATs help the kid?

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread