Please help my dd yr 4, level 2a in writing, what can i do to help?

[whatstream]

...and how to get to a 3b?

When they say 'writing', specifically what do they mean - punctuation, spelling, creativity, or something else?

If anyone had any ideas, I'd be really grateful, I'm currently on the verge of Kumon/Kip McGrath etc. Talking to school is not really an option - I've got that particular t-shirt and they are just not interested (she is not failing 'enough', i.e. her maths and reading are ok, so she will just be left to slide).

I'm happy to research it myself/print worksheets off and do them with her etc. till the cows come home - but she's not willing to do this at home with mum (which is why we're thinking of outsourcing) - but I'm not sure what criteria I'm working towards. Anyone? I'm a prolific googler, but in this case, I'm not sure what to google.

For anyone who is now thinking 'don't worry about levels, it's not the be-all-and-end-all' - I used to think that, until my first dd got to secondary and was mistakenly put in a lower band (now corrected, thanks to advice on here!) and I found out the difference in behaviour, learning, what level they are taught to etc. sorry if that offends anyone but that's what I found to be the case.

Thanks in advance (off to bed now, will check back tomorrow)

hopeful bump

goodnight

Don't do Kumon - terrible for English.

I'd go for a 1 to 1 tutor with experience of KS2 if she won't work with you.

Here are the attainment targets and this and these tips might help as well.

This is a useful book.

These writing frames are a starting point for non fiction.

According to 'big writing' used in alot of schools the focus should be:

Vocabulary, Connectives, Openers and Punctuation

so perhaps assess use of these in her work.

Get her to pick passages out of the books she is reading and look at them together for the above.

Hopefully someone else will be along soon with more advice.

Find an Ed Pysch - get her assessed for dyslexia. My dd's reading is fine too but spelling is shite. She is dyslexic. However it won't necessarily resolve the matter - basically they have to be unable to write their own friggin' name before any resource is put in. Least you would know what is going on though [bitter - me?]

How is her memory...times table recall?

"(she is not failing 'enough', i.e. her maths and reading are ok, so she will just be left to slide). "

this is so sickeningly familiar

My eldest DS has been going here www.numberworks.co.uk/ for maths tutition for the past year-they do English too.

Not cheap but they have been brilliant and he has recently moved up two groups at school (amazing considering he was failing quite badly at one point and getting very distressed over it). I get a lot of feedback on his progress-much more than the school can provide and they have been able to target his areas of weakness.

He is about to swap to literacy for a bit (he is better at this but spelling needs work).

If you can afford tuition it is worth every penny imo, not just academically but his confidence and self belief have massively improved too.

HTH

Firstly, I wouldn't concentrate on what level she is at. I would concentrate on improving her writing skills in general. You want to feel that she can write.

My DS was a 2a at the end of Y4, and over the summer holidays I got him to do a lot of creative writing.

After he wrote it we'd then go back and edit it together.

He now likes creative writing and regularly does it for fun. I also found some children's short story competitions for him to enter which further motivated him.

Over the space of the year his writing has definitely approved.

He can now use full stops and capital letters - and often does :) He sometimes uses commas, and sometimes his sentences are even grammatically correct.

I have seen quite a bit of progress since July. But I haven't concentrated on 'levle's or KS2 goals or anything.....

hello, My DS (8) in y3 just got a 2c for writing and literacy, sort of comaprable I guess.

Just "bad enough" to get him an Individual Eduaction plan (which he has been on for over a year now) and do you know, it is not an amazing intervention or anything. he gets 30 minutes a week one-on-one, but he is pulled out randomly out of other classes (sometimes writing) to do this.

I have decided that taking action is better than just worrying, so we:
-have asked the teacher for extra writing homework once a week

• started him with KipMc Grath once a week (they do a bit much on the computer for my liking, but still, it must all help a bit)
• I am having him tested for dyslexia

...

The best way for children to improve their writing is by doing lots of it. So encouraging your dd to do more of that and to be as relaxed about spelling mistakes as u possibly can, would help. Many children get put off trying to write much by worries about 'correct' spelling.

Most parents don't know that nearly half of all children find learning to spell English 'correctly' extremely difficult.

Some children who have difficulty memorising the irregular letters in hundreds of English words (www.EnglishSpellingProblems.co.uk) benefit from having explained to them that their difficulties are due to English spelling inconsistencies, by being shown what kind of learning accurate English spelling involves.

I think writing can mean all those things - punctuation, spelling, creativity, etc.

It might be worth talking to the teacher to find out the specific areas of weakness and then formulating a plan?

(just back from school run)

thank you everyone who replied

I will make use of all the links and advice (love mumsnet).

Re: dyslexia - I honestly don't think it's that, as her writing that I have seen just doesn't look that bad to me . However, she is still either ambidextrous or hasn't made her mind up which hand to stick with, depending how you look at it!

Now, one of her class teachers a couple of years ago spoke about this as though it was a charming, clever quirk, so I thought nothing of it. Then, the following year with a different class teacher, I was told that I should be worried as it might be a sign of dyspraxia...but then nothing else was done. tbh I have given up on the school and have resigned myself to plugging the gap until secondary - which is why i am concerned about levels because it determines what group she can enter yr 7 at.

How do I go about getting any sort of assessment - ed psych or otherwise? it' s like blood out of a stone, surely?

if it wasn't for the fact that it would cause her so much upheaval I would have moved schools tbh.

I spoke to the Kumon rep on the phone last night and I've got my doubts (and have researched and seen all the negatives). What about Kip McGrath?

thanks for all your helps mners.

sorry, i meant to say - the reason I feel I've given up on school is due to lack of being able to speak to them, as any approach is met with 'oh, it'll be ok' type of thing.

it's very wishy-washy and uninterested, basically.

for example, I have asked for extra homework but it just doesn't happen - as 'everyone must be given the same and some children's parents don't want it'

another example - i discovered that dd has been leaving her (fully equipped with the basics but nothing flashy) pencil case at home - when I asked why, she said the teacher says they aren't allowed to use their own things, and aren't allowed to use pens at all - everyone must use pencils provided by teacher so that 'everyone has the same' and dd then said 'some of them are down to here' "and I can't hold it properly" wtf

also - i asked for dd's levels and it took 4 attempts and a long time of asking. you get the idea.

am I right in thinking that with Kumon, you just go and sit in the centre and do work, but are not actually required to attend? if so, there's no point then is there?! (i think that' s what the rep was saying)

whatstream,

We did kumon with my ds a few years ago which was basically rote learning.Worked OK for basic maths but nothing you couldn't do yourself and ds found it pretty boring .The english stuff really wasn't good.There was no real teaching; yes you just sit in the centre doing worksheets .

We also looked at Kip McGrath and it just seemed to be kids sat at computers, so I didn't see how this would be any better than doing computer sites at home.

I think the advantage of a 1 to 1 tutor (who is knowledgeable of ks2 level and english particularly) is the tuition can be tailored to your dd and gets her actually physically writing then looking at her writing for improvements.

With a tutor you need to be quite specific on what you want to get out of the tuition and perhaps set specific goals for each session so you can measure the usefulness of what she is learning.

There seems to me, to be limited value in doing english on computer sites and the best way to improve is to write lots, but children who struggle are reluctant to do this, so it's catch 22.

I would see if anyone can recommend a tutor.If you wanted a ed psych assessment you could probably find one privately also.

dd just gone to bed. I sat with her tonight and we attempted persuasive writing - topic was our holiday from last year which she loved and has always had plenty to say about.

explained that she was trying to convince a friend to go on holiday where we went, what would she say to the friend etc.

blank expression so I suggested a mind map/spider diagram - dd looked blank and said she had never heard of these, so I started her off then she was ok when she got going, wrote lots of details that she remembered from the holiday etc.

re: dyslexia - i don't think so, all spellings on this mind map were correct! or is it something else other than spelling ? (happy to be corrected)

we practised writing on the lines, capitals etc. Then I said about using connectives when she does her writing - nope, never heard of that at school either apparently. So I explained that to her, and she seemed to get that ok.

Then she struggled to get a starting sentence, so we went through some verbally e.g. "I went on holiday to x and I think you should go there because..." etc. but she just couldn't do it and couldn't get it onto the paper.

I went away to answer the phone and when I came back she had written 'I don't know what to do mummy, I don' t like it" and had a little cry - obviously I left it at that point and we had a cuddle and some reassurance etc, I'm not a complete ogre, lol.

The phone call was from the Kip McGrath rep who assured me that they are all qualified teachers and that groups are approx 5 each, which seems better/more hopeful?

Any more advice welcome ,, thanks again to all those already done so.

just to add, the KM rep asked me what primary school we were at and when I told him he did a meaningful "Oh, I see". Don't know whether to laugh, cry, or put that down to marketing hype lol.

It might be an idea to create lots of word banks and ideas. Choose something you know she likes, a tv character maybe, a celebrity etc and get her to come up with as many words as she can that she associates with them. You could even scribe for her. Talk to her about the words she has chosen 'that's a good adjective' 'that would be a great verb to use' etc.

Also, when she is reading tell her to be an idea thief, get a jazzy notebook and tell her to write down anything she likes when she's reading - words/phrases/names of characters etc. After a while you can help her to classify them into connectives/speech etc.
If she's a bit switched off from writing, private tuition may not be the right route just yet?
HTH

dd's teacher last year told me that, although she knew she was an able student in general class, when they did tests/exams, apparently she basically just didn't answer any of the questions, so she got a low level. When we asked her about it at the time, she just started crying and said she didn't know why. (At that time, I knew nothing about levels and wasn't interested, so it wasn't pressure from us - this incident was what started us off!)

Chandon getting your ds tested for dyslexia - privately, or via school? or where?

I know where you are coming from re the extra half an hour a week but they are missing other lessons to do it, so defeating the object - why not use 'golden time' to do this?

hmc sounds like we have trodden a similar path. Re: how's her memory, times tables recall - we have hell on earth because I insist on learning times tables and apparently school don't bother (!) - all they have done is easy ones like 2s and 5s, ffs. So I get to look unreasonable. I don't know whether she can't remember or chooses not to, iyswim. However, her maths level is ok, not brilliant at 3c but it's ok and she never seems to struggle with maths generally.

IndigoBell before this, I would have been there with you saying 'don't worry about levels' and in fact, I never did worry about levels, but I didn't realise that it determined the stream you go into at yr 7, and frankly, my dd is not naturally studious so if she got into a low stream, meaning lower expectations and all the behaviour problems that go with that, she would sink without a trace and join in with it, basically. sorry if i sound harsh but I have been through it with my elder dd (you can search my posts) and am trying to avoid it.

whatstream,

That is sad, but I'm sure she can get there with help.

Maybe,that was too much detail for a 1st session.I'm sure she does know connectives but using a variety of different ones is key to achieving a higher level, so something you can work specifically on one day.My ds actually enjoys learning the grammar rules - thiscommas one worked well.

Kip McGrath is qualified teacher based but 1 to 5 isn't the same as 1 to 1 and I didn't like the computer based aspect of it.The one I observed seemed to be just children sat at computers so programme based rather than teacher based.

xposts orangekitkat,

some lovely ideas there, that don't sound too 'threatening' to someone who thinks they can't do it. thanks

also xposts easterchocolate, again thanks for good ideas.

yes, it's true that sitting at computer can be done at home and I don't need to pay £££ for that! however, I'm thinking if I can get someone else, i.e. a teacher-figure to break through the barrier, I could then perhaps get further at home.

yes, maybe it was too much detail. i thought it would be ok as I was there all the way, going through everything with her, but as always, as soon as you turn your back, she stops

goodnight all, thanks again

Our school use big writing and our levels have improved dramatically. We focus on the 4 main aspects of writing Vocabulary, connectives, openers and punctuation (VCOP) aswell as a focused writing session every week to improve writing stamina. On this link look at the py VCOP pyramid at the top are the words expected for level 1 and then the 2nd row is level 2 etc. watsoneastwoldblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/vcop-big-writing-pyramid/
A search on google for VCOP will give you lots of activities and games to help teach these points. However your childs school should be supporting you on this. It is possible with a little intervention to improve writing in a short space of time. Good luck

This may seem a bit too obvious, but have u tried being honest with your dd and explained that u are a bit worried about the grades she gets for her writing because they will determine what class/ what other pupils she will end up with at big school?

Then explain that getting better at writing is easy if she simply does more of it - simply putting her thoughts on paper about anything - for u to read, or even just keep as a 'thought book' which she might find interesting to look at when she is a bit older.

Would she be motivated by any of the workbooks at Smiths, etc? e.g. Enchanted English, Letts English, etc. Could you devise a programme whereby if she did a few pages a week she got some kind of treat?

Also, is she reading lots of different types of language? Can you use, for example, some of the election propaganda that will be coming out for the referendum to show her persuasive language? (maybe even tape and watch some party political broadcasts).

DS's class have a list of "banned words" e.g. big, small, sad to force them to think of more creative ones. Could you brainstorm some similes for those every so often, maybe using a thesaurus if you get stuck.

Michael Rosen also suggested, at a talk I saw, taking a poem such as "Owl and the Pussycat" and get a child to fill in the blanks with their own version. e.g. to identify and practice adjectives, go through the poem and find them and personalise them. Would she have a pea-green boat or a different colour? Would it be a beautiful boat, an attractive boat, a scary boat, an awesome boat? Help her see that the choices she makes could really change the tenor of the poem, maybe doing it a few times to make it different each time.

The Owl and the Pussy-cat went to sea
In a beautiful pea green boat,
(what would hers look like)
They took some honey, and plenty of money,
Wrapped up in a five pound note.
The Owl looked up to the stars above,
And sang to a small guitar,
(is her guitar big, small, magical)
'O lovely Pussy! O Pussy my love,
(is her pussy lovely or terrifying?)
What a beautiful Pussy you are,
(..?. pussy)
You are,
You are!
What a beautiful Pussy you are!'
(..?. pussy) etc

You could also play around with interviewing the characters. Why did you go to sea? Why did you wrap honey in money? Why did you sail at night?

Or look at a picture, and first brainstorm a list of what you can see and then of how it makes you feel. e.g. a cockroach might be brown, shiny, like an insect, on leaves, with legs, etc. It might make you feel scared, creeped out, wondering how it got into the house, etc. Don't use furry animals - too cliched - get really weird and wonderful pictures.

Sorry - hard to read - don't know how to do italics, clearly.

Hi,
I sit in on my DS's Kip McGrath sessions. He's not just on the computer for 80 minutes. He does writing in a notebook and his tutor elicits adjectives for him to use and encourages him to use different words to start sentences. His tutor is excellent and in 10 sessions there has been a definite improvement so he's on course for a 2b (he's Y2)
I was a bit worried about the tutor splitting her time between five but it works out well and the achieve a lot in their sessions.