come and stop me saaying something stupid

[blackeyedsusan]

AAGGHHH

I need you lot to come to our playground, Rugby tackle me, sit on me and generally stop me yelling at the teacher in frustration. (well it will do no good will it!)

I know it really doesn't matter

I know there are books in the library

I know we are carrying on at home

BUT every now and again the frustration builds and I want to shout,
"Why can't she have a harder reading book?"

(because she won't talk about the ruddy pictures)

and yes I also know that confidence will come ( though it seems to take forever)

The teacher heard her read last week and wrote in the diary,
"Lovely talking about the pictures." grrr

I just want to write, NOW can she have a harder book.

God knows what we will do when she is reading books at home without pictures...I can see us reading Harry bloody Potter before she finishes the pink band books at school!

Right rant over... your turn...

I wish I could be like you letsescape...in fact, I think I'm going to try it or have a seizure or something!! My DD is nowhere near the level of your DS; she's about 18mos ahead and I'm having a hard enough time with the school. How many deep breaths do you have to take before speaking to a teacher?

Lets, that reminds me of my English teacher during my first year at secondary school. We were told to choose a book to read, either from the school selection or from home/library.

I was reading a Daphne du Maurier novel at the time - hadn't realised that it wasn't quite what the teacher had in mind .

I am always puzzled about people's reading frustration because my dd's school has never allowed children to plod along bored. And, my dd's school is not popular, not middleclass still considered a bit of a dump!

However, my dd raced through reading levels, missed out many books and has been stimulated all the way through. All children have been encouraged to read at their own level, whether that was by becoming a 'free reader' half way through year 1 or having daily reading sessions because they're struggling.

Show of hands that sounds really interesting. How is it different?

I have to agree with ShowofHands, to a degree - I have a friend who's DD could 'read the Telegraph cover to cover, and pronounce any word in the dictionary' before she even started school. Reading and in depth understanding of the story, showing some imagination, predicting what will happen etc etc are just, if not more, important than simply reading the words, as was the case for my friend's DD. Talking about pictures will also check your DC has been absorbing the story and it is a way of checking their understanding/lack of. I also agree that if you genuinely feel your child fulfils the criteria of understanding etc that it would be really frustrating. But, I think you answer your own question well - Does it Really Matter, No. Your child sounds bright and it will all come out OK - possibly when they get a different teacher in September.

But the pictures in the reading scheme books are the product of someone else's imagination (and are very often intended to take the place of the words for the children who just cannot hack 'look & guess' methods of learning to read). So why should they felt to be stimulating a child's imagination? There's nothing to imagine, it's all there, on the page in glorious colour....

I agree that pictures can add an extra dimension; some illustrations add an absolute wealth of detail which isn't explicitly written in the text. But they don't leave anything to the imagination!

Talking about pictures will also check your DC has been absorbing the story and it is a way of checking their understanding/lack of.

Oh, come on. The pictures in most scheme books tell the story. Child could recount it all from the pictures without having understood a single word they've read.... If you really want to check understanding you ask about what they have read, not what they have seen.

Stimulate the imagination with varied visual experiences, there are millions of images 'out there', not to mention real life; but it is weird to expect scheme book illustrations to do the job...

predicting what will happen etc etc

No wonder children get turned off reading... they are badgered to talk about the pictures, then expected to guess what is going to happen. I don't know about you, but when I read a book for the first time I like to be swept along by the author's wonderful prose and clever plotting. The end should be a glorious culmination and is deeply satisfying if it has unexpected, but plausible, twists. There is nothing more boring than knowing how a book is going to end by the time you are halfway through... (Old, frequently re-read, favourites excepted...)

I don't send home wordless books (and only use them in school for children who have language difficulties as part of a programme to support speech). illustrations can enhance a lovely book but you can't read pictures simply because they can mean one thing to one person and something else to another. We read words!

maizie - from your post I feel as though somehow I may have offended, reading back over your comments on this subject, you seem to hold quite passionate ideas about 'scheme' books and their purpose. Your views are totally accurate if each reader is treated the same as the next - not ALL kids are subject to the same 'life experiences' as the next, they are not all blessed with parents who read to, and subsequently with, their children, with parents who realise the importance of the 'millions of images out there' and how they are interpreted - for some the TV/online games is all they see regularly. A lot of kids' imagination does need stimulating, by what would be seen by some as 'obvious' - not all kids would feel the same way, a good teacher would realise that bright, confident kids don't necessarily need to be 'badgered' into discussing pictures...

thebeansmum talking about the pictures only tells you what your child knows about the pictures not help them read the Telegraph.

I had this with ds2. Ds1 remained on red level for the whole of reception. He was tested 3 times in year 1 and moved up 1 level at a time. Has really been on catch up this year. So with ds 2 I was dismayed to see that he was being given every single red book. So I bit the bullet and told teacher he was finding them a little easy. Now on level 7. Actually skipped 2 levels after i mentioned it.

mrsz - of course, but I am not referring to picture- only books, I thought we were discussing the purpose of using pictures as an aid to reading? So I do not understand your reference to reading the Telegraph? My original point was lots of children can read things they don't necessarily understand. Anyway, as you are a teacher, I'm a bit out of my depth - I was talking from a personal point of view, we will never all agree on everything but I know for sure the nature/nurture debate could go on until the end of time. Some parents' lives are taken over by worry over comparing little Johnny to little Bobby and book colours and comments in reading records. All a bit sad really.

thebeansmum that is why I can't quite understand your reference to your friend's child who can read the Telegraph. For what it's worth my son could read the Financial Times while still at nursery (ASD) but it had nothing to do with using pictures as a reading aid (simply because they aren't).

mrz Again, it was an example that was intended originally to help the question posed - ie why the poster's child could not 'have a harder reading book' teacher's reply 'because she won't talk about the pictures' My point was simply being able to read text, wether it be a broadsheet or Biff and Chip, doesn't cut it - what's the point if what they are reading doen't mean anything? My friend's daughter (no ASD) was hailed as some reading prodigy at 3 years old by well-meaning friends and family because she read the paper. When she started school she was very upset and tantrumed when asked questions about what she had just read (Biff and Chip)as nobody had ever asked her before. Now she struggles with comprehension as hates to read in school.

Sorry, thebeansmum, I wasn't getting at you personally.

I am indeed very passionate about 'scheme books, like ORT, because I work with secondary children who have been utterly messed up by the 'strategies' which accompany them (which the books are specifically written to support) and who will consequently be at a disadvantage for the rest of their lives.

Children are, in the main, superb learners. The child who has been taught to read the pictures, look at the first letter & guess, or just guess, never really loses their well learned early reading habits.

But who's to say that it doesn't mean anything? My son certainly knew what he was reading even at 3 ...as he would say "Grandpa my shares are up ...or down" (whatever the case was that day).He would also go into long explanations about NATO deployment in Europe (as his favourite reading matter at the time)
Often the illustrations in books can tell a different story from the text so the idea that learning how to read wordless books aids comprehension is not at all convincing.

But surely asking a child to talk about the pictures is getting a child to use their imagination, to talk about what they see, how the characters might feel, waht they think might happen next, describe the colours on the walls, background, what room they might be in based on what furniture/accessories are in the room.

This is all about starting comprehension and understanding what books might be about. They tell a story, but do you understand it.

As someone said below, its about interpretation and even worded books can be interpreted differently depending on your personal character.

Reading isnt just about reading words. Its about opening up your imagination and feeling you are part of the story. Its about putting yourself into the story.

As an adult you might not like the way a story is going, and will think about what ifs.

By teaching children from the start to think about what they see and to describe their surroundings, say what they feel/think, (happy/sad/crying, laughing etc) what the weather is like, talk about ifs, it takes them to the next step in their writing.

If they learn that when reading a book you have all these images that appear in their head when reading, that that is what they will need to do when they write a story. Obviously in early years it wont happen but if they are aware of what might be expected, it would make their writing more creative and interesting to read.

But you can do all that with a book with words and illustrations roadart while teaching that we read the words not the pictures. Wordless books provide extra revenue for publishers but don't provide anything that can't be gained from quality picture story books.

I just thought my spiel would give an explanation of why non worded books can/are supposed be useful. As you say worded books with pictures do the same.

Have to admit I hated them and they used to stay in DDs bag. I didnt get the reason why asking questions about pictures was beneficial.

However, my dd, whilst having excellent comprehension skills and is a high level reader and speller, is really bad at writing stories, so dont know if this was caused by me not asking more questions about the pictures when she was younger. She isnt interested in using descriptive text and couldnt care less about making her stories interesting to read.

My DD is a classic example of good reading/ comprehension and spelling skills dont always mean will be a good writer.

The only reason I can see for wordless books (unless used by SaLT) is to make more money for publishers.

We do something called Big Talk which really helps with later writing skills.

I love the sound of your dd, RoadArt! A child who knows her own mind, obviously!

Does she hate people asking her silly questions about her book when what she wants to do is get on and read it and find out what the author has planned to happen next (not some bleep bleep 'prediction' she's been forced to make )

lovecheese, she doesn't know what level she is on as far as 2b, 3a etc - just asked her. She has always known what colour she is on because she gets to pick books from a particular shelf. She says she is on 'chapter books' and that this is the top level for Y2. But everyone seems to talk numbers on mn. Will definitely be asking next parents evening, if only for mn purposes!

HI eileen, didn't mean what NC level she is on (I don't think any child would know that) but meant what colour in the book bands.

What does NC level mean anyway???

Actually I think DD's school is flexible about this, so I have never had to worry about it. If the book is too easy we ignore it - and her Y1 teacher said she could choose from a higher shelf if she wanted to. Loads of schools on mn sound really rigid about their system.

Squidgy, that is exactly what I fear. She will probably have to read every single pink book, and at one a week that is going to take ages. (by which time school will have had to replace the reading scheme and she will have to read a whole new set of pink books....)

When I first asked for something a little harder, she was about the middle of yellow band at home, now she is well into green band. *(reads some orange, reads some blue depending what is in stock at the library)

Next time I see the teacher I will express concern that she is not making progress with the teacher.