Maths for non readers

[IndigoBell]

Teachers, how do you teach Maths to kids who can't read in Y3?

DD is on the bottom table which has a TA assigned to it, but I'm fairly certain the only reason she is on the bottom table is because she can't read - rather than her maths ability.

Does anyone have any creative ideas for how the teacher can give her appropriate Maths work (when they are operating a class in this way, with a bottom table, and a TA assigned to it)?

(Obv I'm going to talk to the teacher, was just hoping for some inspiration from here before I approached her...)

IndigoBell no real advice just didn't want your post to go unanswered. Will be back later when I have got toddler-from-hell in bed...

I use signs and symbols, instructions are given verbally, i provide a "written example" ( obviously not in words but in diagrams/workings) and off we go. Some topics are more difficult, clearly word problems need a bit of thought and I write my own to suit the reading ability of the child as far as possible, but maths must be one of the easiest subjects for a non reader to cope with, I had an EAL child join my yr 5/6 class last year with no English at all but he managed perfectly well in a mid ability group as he understood the doodles! ( and the only reason he was in a mid group was because he had only 2 years of own language schooling before joining us and there were many topics he just hadn't covered)

I've also used talking tins ...record the instructions and the child can play it back as many times as they need.

I would love my kids to have a teacher like Mrz. You have some really great ideas and it sounds like you really make learning so much fun.

I think she is actually Mary Poppins.

...or Nanny McPhee, but nicer looking...

Thanks everyone, I'll see what the teacher says.

Well quite.

It's not fair to children to base everything on word problems. They never get to think, ok well I'm not good with words but I'm a whiz with numbers.

God I hate the national curriculum.

Get old fashioned about it. Find maths exercises that strip out the words. Teach with number lines, go back to counters if you have to, then do pages of sums with numbers only, at home. Simple ones at first, she'll get to love love love getting them all right. For the meanttime, forget about the standard she is at school - because of the curriculum the way it is, that grading won't improve until her reading improves. So you boost her abilities, skills and confidence with the old rote learning and number testing, and times tables and so on.

I seriously think you might have to ignore what the teacher says especially if she is young.

Your daughter will need to acquire her skills independent of the curriculum, and then fit them to curriculum requirements. Word problems are obviously an important skill to acquire but it's utterly pointless when they stop you learning the basics.

My daughter 'draws' pictures. She has very poor reading ability, but is very good with maths and science.

The same way you'd draw a picture of a cat, my daughter has been taught to draw the word, so she is given key words for each subject, and now in secondary school this list has got longer. But it started in year 3.

So she sees the word 'Explain' and knows that means she has to give a how it works answer, 'Describe' gives a description etc. She still can't read, i.e. decode any new words etc, but can at least answer questions in all her other subjects, by knowing what the question is asking of her.

Read the question is key with her (as with anyone), but she has to make sure that she looks for the detail of the picture i.e. is the picture of 'least' or 'most' in the sentence.

I hope this post makes sense, because it's something I couldn't really understand with my daughter, and I'm still not very good at explaining it, but it's a very good technique for a non-reader.

RightPissedOff - The teacher says she is doing fine, and I can see that she is doing fine. It's just that it's more convenient for the teacher to keep her at the table with the kids who aren't doing fine, so the TA can read to her.

Obv I don't really know what happens in the classroom, or if there is any real diff between this table and the middle ability tables, but it would do wonders for her self esteem to not be on this table anymore, so I will speak to the teacher.

Receiver - that's really interesting. I sincerely hope my DD does learn to read and doesn't need the system you have outlined. But I will keep it in the back of my mind. Thanks for telling me about it.

I have just got a new book out relating what I have learned from 25 years of experience with tutoring maths privately (to all ages). The nice thing about tutoring is that, not being affiliated with the school system, I was never obliged to implement methods that don't work. I let the students teach me how to teach, case by case. As a tutor, you are hired to get results. If you don't get the results, the parents rightly let you go.

One universal thing that I have found which will be helpful to you is what I call the "money rule". I found that if I ask a student a mental arithmetic question that stumps them, if I just insert one word into the question (pounds/dollars etc.), as if by magic, the student is often suddenly able to do the problem. This proves that the mental faculty was already in place (and actually from a very early age)-what you have to do is open up different pathways to access those faculties in different ways, then gradually move away from the "money". So playing with money and rephrasing in terms of money is very powerful. For example, "What is the average speed if I travel 400 miles in 8 hours?" is identical to "What is my daily average expenditure if I spend 400 pounds in 8 days?" A student may get stuck on the first one but may immediately be able to the second one, but they are absolutely identical mathematical problems. I go into this sort of thing and ther important techniques that have produced results in the book, which also has a lot of carefully designed oral drills. In your particular case of reading trouble, doing things orally, and then writing out (and reading) the same problems in a graduated fashion (from rudimentary, moving on to full sentences). As receiver mentioned, identifying the key words in question even by recognition can go a long way (there are not many of them!). The oral drills that I recommend are not rote learning: rather they are of the sort that develop intuition. For example, instead of asking "what is 4 x 5?" you say "Approximately what do you need to multiply 4 by to get 19?" That uses a different part of the brain and is very powerful.

Sorry - I accidentally hit return before the message was complete. I have also researched a lot of free resources on the web and carefully selected a diverse set of resources and put organized tables of links on the website that goes with the book. The website also has a preview of the book, which should be available from any bookseller or library, although at the time of writing it is still working its way through the system as it was only released this week. I don't want to violate the "Mumsnet talk" rules with self-promoting links, so if you go to the US Amazon and search for "What Can I Do to Help My Child with Math If I Don't Know Any Myself?" it should be the first hit and the blurb will lead to the website. IndigoBell: if you send me a message, I'll send you a free copy of the book. Everyone else: the first 3 to message me also get a free book. Sorry, I have to limit the number or else I'll be broke. If anyone fancies doing a book review that would be great (even a bad review is better than no review). By the way, don't be put off by the americanized title: I'm from the UK and went to school in the UK and first started teaching in the UK. It is still hard for me to say "math" and not "maths" - I wasn't sure whether to write two versions of the book because very little would be different in actual content. However, I left a couple of Britishisms in the book for fun-see if you can spot them!

I work with younger cildren but can also recommend Talking Tins and similar tyes of products to help with reminders of instructions, esp with non readers.

Whoops, another mistake, the correct title is "What Can I Do to Help My Child with Math When I Don't Know Any Myself?" You would think that I would know by now.

DoctorT - thanks. I PM'd you

Grrrrr. I spoke to teacher and she said she'd move her up to the next table.

Then it didn't happen so I spoke to teacher again, and she said she couldn't move her up because she couldn't read!

I soooooooo want to HE my DD. But unfortunately I work :(