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Questions about 'ability' in the classroom

82 replies

Cortina · 16/02/2011 10:52

Do educators assume that 'ability' in the class room follows an approximate bell sized distribution? Within the classroom there will roughly three groups of children the below average, average and above average.?

The average around which ability groups are based being approximately the middle of the class. NC targets are then set for each group depending on whether the group is above average, average or below average?

In a literacy lesson, for example, the highest group will get to write a poem with a free choice of words in a similar style to the one studied, the middle group will write a few paragraphs on something around the general theme with much vocab given to them, the bottom group given a few sentences as regards what was happening in the lesson.

You can see the flaws in this system, it's possible that someone talented might be in the bottom group but due to poor evaluation and lack of opportunity to excel will never be seen to be as able as his peers in the top group.

In a good school, with a good teacher this is unlikely?

The bottom group are unlikely to excel in KS2 if this is the set up even if capable? Do some able children 'fall through the net' in this sort of scenario? What about a large class etc?

I'm always struck reading through posts here and elsewhere that parents seem to think 'ability' is fairly static. The forums are shot through with opinions about a child's static academic ability. John is 'able' at maths but less 'able' at english, one child just isn't academic and so on, there's a feeling that there's little room for John to smash anyone's expectations especially as he gets older.

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nobodyisasomebody · 16/02/2011 15:05

I agree with what IndigoBell said.

You seem quite disatisfied with the group system in your child's school.

It may well be that he is above average if compared to the population at large, but depending on the demographics of the school, he could be in the lower half of the class.

At a school my ds went too, there were lots of bright children and the top two groups were identical in ability but one group was able to work independently and the other needed more intervention to stay on task.

Cortina · 16/02/2011 15:06

Yes, my son moved up 3 book bands once because I said he was able and then they reassessed. They told me they'd only been looking for signs for the next level at the previous assessment.

It's a reading conveyor belt in our school, those that started ahead have stayed ahead. Parents were pushing in reception and Y1 but I didn't. Their children haven't regressed and are now free readers, they were perceived as able from the start.

With my next child I will be pushing from the start, I can see the advantages.

All of the above said many tell me it really doesn't matter in the long run, it's a marathon not a sprint, SATS don't mean anything etc. There was a great thread on here a while back which said writing was the area where parents could really make the most difference in terms of how their child was perceived/helping them progress.

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nobodyisasomebody · 16/02/2011 15:11

It has not been my experience that bright children not achieving have excuses made for them either.

Starting ahead, they may stay ahead because they do have higher ability. If they are percieved as able, it might be because they are?

The reading conveyor belt is tiresome I know, but surely a child is able to read to his or her hearts content at home. I never could understand the obsession with book bands that I hear of.

Cortina · 16/02/2011 15:17

Nobody, you say:

There were lots of bright children and the top two groups were identical in ability but one group was able to work independently and the other needed more intervention to stay on task.

Being pedantic this is the problem I have with the 'system'. You say one whole group can work independently and one group needed more intervention to stay on task. There may be some in the second group who were also as capable as those in the first group. The grouping system encourages everyone to make assumptions, one WHOLE group are slightly more able than the other. Worse still some in the second group may unwittingly believe they are not as capable as those in the first. Ok it's subtle and perhaps it doesn't really matter as both should go on to do well.

The teacher almost agreed with me when I pointed something like this out but they said 'what choice do I have? I need to group them to roll out the curriculum and set targets'.

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ElinElin · 16/02/2011 15:19

RMCW - have looked at a few schools in area and the schools that I like are popular schools and very oversubscribed. I don't know what it is like where you live but here you have to basically live within 0.5miles of the school to have a chance of getting in. And I don't want to move her to just any school. Moving would be a big decision and I would want to make sure that everything about the school I am moving to is better than the one I am moving from. Easy to say 'move school' but if you look in to the schools in my area and the admissions and waiting lists it is not so easy.

BoffinMum · 16/02/2011 15:24

Do educators assume that 'ability' in the class room follows an approximate bell sized distribution?

They do, but psychologists would say that there is a different shaped bell curve for males and females. More women are similar to each other in IQ terms, whereas with men you get a greater number in the top and bottom groups. Of course this is complicated by other variables such as social class, age, ability to pass certain IQ tests and so on, so is a rather blunt tool.

Within the classroom there will roughly three groups of children the below average, average and above average.?

No, the bell curve only really applies to the whole population, or at least a very big sample, so cannot apply to a group of 20-30. It would be technically possible for a random class of children to be surprisingly similar in ability, whereas another class in the same school might vary a lot more within the class.

The average around which ability groups are based being approximately the middle of the class. NC targets are then set for each group depending on whether the group is above average, average or below average?

Herein lies the problem. NC targets are based on a Government policy aimed at reducing variation amongst schools. However they have ended up being used for a number of purposes including promoting the concept of the average child's attainment as a proxy for achievement in a particular subject, probably at the expense of the top and bottom 10% receiving proper attention.

In a literacy lesson, for example, the highest group will get to write a poem with a free choice of words in a similar style to the one studied, the middle group will write a few paragraphs on something around the general theme with much vocab given to them, the bottom group given a few sentences as regards what was happening in the lesson.

This is reasonable enough but all too often children in the bottom 25% at an early age are left with a limited menu of educational experiences compared to those perceived as being more able. This then becomes a vicious circle as they do less and less challenging work and their progress curve is less steep over the years.

You can see the flaws in this system, it's possible that someone talented might be in the bottom group but due to poor evaluation and lack of opportunity to excel will never be seen to be as able as his peers in the top group.

Exactly, and in many cases teachers are poorly trained and equipped to carry out this evaluation, yet labels stick.

In a good school, with a good teacher this is unlikely?

It is impossible to tell and mis-labelling happens in all schools, and it could be said that all teachers may make this mistake at some point in their career. However the better ones make fewer mistakes. A good analogy would be mis-diagnosis by GPs. There are always times when people fail to get antibiotics in time, or a suitable referral, but hopefully a good GP will be aware of the likelihood of making a mistake and remain vigilant, changing his/her mind and making amends as necessary.

The bottom group are unlike
ly to excel in KS2 if this is the set up even if capable? Do some able children 'fall through the net' in this sort of scenario? What about a large class etc?

They fall through the net all the time. Vigilant middle class parents are often able to address this, but less vocal parents receive an impoverished education for their children. My personal view is that it is possible for almost all children to meet targets at KS2 with the right teaching and resources, if they attend school regularly and do all the work required in a sensible manner.

I'm always struck reading through posts here and elsewhere that parents seem to think 'ability' is fairly static.

It is not completely static, no psychologist would ever say that. IQs can be developed over time with the right stimuli and resources. However you are unlikely to be able to lift an IQ more than about 10 points in my experience. However that could make the difference between sitting A Levels successfully and not sitting A Levels, for example, so it's worth remembering.

The forums are shot through with opinions about a child's static academic ability. John is 'able' at maths but less 'able' at english, one child just isn't academic and so on, there's a feeling that there's little room for John to smash anyone's expectations especially as he gets older.

Interestingly it is well know that children can move schools and be perceived completely differently in the new institution, if they have no prior knowledge of the child's supposed capabilities. However in the main there is a broad correlation between opinions of pupils held by different teachers. It's unfortunate that some children slip through the net, and it's probably these cases we hear most about on MN. That will never go away, but it would be helpful if teachers reviewed ability groups more often and also challenged lower achieving children more intensively. I would also say that children can be asynchronous, in that they can be age 11 at reading whilst being age 8 at maths, age 9 in real life and age 3 at tiding up their bedrooms. It's called being human!

Hope that helps.

cory · 16/02/2011 15:29

Cortina, not grouping wouldn't necessarily solve the problem of unspoken beliefs either.

My ds nearly lost faith in himself during the first year when they were not grouped in ability sets; he ended up working next to some of the brightest children in the school and spent the best part of the year pondering the fact that he couldn't do any of the things they could. So far from spurring him on to higher things, it made him give up and conclude that "other children are clever, I am dim". It was nothing the teacher, or anybody else, said or did, it was just that sitting next to children so much brighter, he came to believe that everybody was much brighter than him.

As an aside, I have now got to the stage (Yr 6) where I am telling ds that it is his responsibility what he wants to do with his learning: if he is prepared to do the work to move up, then I am convinced that he is capable of it and I shall never waver from this belief. Otoh if he chooses to focus on the unfairness of having to work for something that comes more easily to somebody else, then I really cannot help him.

But as regards reading, neither of my children has had the bulk of their reading determined by what they are currently reading at school: dd was reading LOTR at home at the same time as she was doing Magic ey stories at school.

nobodyisasomebody · 16/02/2011 15:32

Being pedantic this is the problem I have with the 'system'. You say one whole group can work independently and one group needed more intervention to stay on task. There may be some in the second group who were also as capable as those in the first group. The grouping system encourages everyone to make assumptions, one WHOLE group are slightly more able than the other. Worse still some in the second group may unwittingly believe they are not as capable as those in the first. Ok it's subtle and perhaps it doesn't really matter as both should go on to do well.

It was made clear that they were equally able, some of the children in the group needing more supervision were more distractable and quite naughty. My own ds being one of these.

All the children knew that they were the top two tables. There were 4 tables in the class altogether.

It seemed that although the children knew who was where with regard to ability they didn't really care. It mattered far more to the parents.

ElinElin · 16/02/2011 15:35

littlebylittle. You say 'I don't see why people have such a prob with helping out the teacher by telling them things you 've noticed at home.'
I have not got a problem telling the teacher. I did tell the teacher and her response was: 'Your dd is not demonstrating she can do this in school. It doesn't matter if she can do it at home, I assess what she shows in school. When I asked why does she think she is not demonstrating it in school, is she not confident in class? What can I do to help at home? Teacher replied:' You cannot do anything you can't recreate a classroom environment at home, Back off at home and don't do any teaching with her for a while.'
If you have any suggestions how I approach the teacher next time please let me know.

reallytired · 16/02/2011 15:38

In reception my son was in group 3 of 5. In year 1 he moved down to group 4 of 5. Now he is in the top group for everything in year 4.

My son's school it is based on what the child can do rather than a bell curve. My son really struggled with handwriting in year 1 and he had bad glue ear. Later on the glue ear cleare up an he mastered writing.

He is doing really well an hasn't looked back since.

I think there is an element of truth that confident children do better regardless of intelligence.

Certainly Finland has mixed ablity classes and they do better than us academically.

Panzee · 16/02/2011 15:42

It's not as arbitrary as slicing the class into 4 and saying "higher than national average, national average, lower than NA, SEN". It's based on individual targets depending on their National Curriculum level and sublevel. So the 'top' group could all be below national average, just the 'top' level for that class. It's all about where they are and where they need to go.

IndigoBell · 16/02/2011 15:58

And even within one table the kids won't necessarily be all doing the same work....

I think it is impossible to know what happens in class when you're not there to observe. And fruitless to speculate....

Kids get all sorts of messages - from school, from their peers, from home, from others...

If there was some kind of identikit thing going on then everyone on a table would get the same results - which clearly isn't true.

It is only fair to expect everyone to work to the best of their ability. To expect every child to be the best in the class is clearly pointless.

Some schools 100% of kids get a level 4+ and 50% of kids get a 5+. Whereas other schools only 60% get a level 4+ and 10% of kids get a level 5+

So being on the 'middle' table means diff things in those 2 schools.

I don't care at all what table my kids are on. It is up to them what they make of their life. I don't care what results they get at school at KS2 - or at GCSEs. There is no correlation between the things I wish for my kids and GCSE results.

The only thing I do very much hope is that all 3 of mine learn to read, write, and add up.

littlebylittle · 16/02/2011 16:18

Sorry elin, that was not addressed at you, more some people who seem cross that the teacher doesn't instantly spot things that they've noticed about their children. Or who sit on things for weeks and get frustrated about it. None of those apply to you but I can see why my wording would make you think that. I also know that dealing with some teachers can be like banging heads against brick walls. A bit of professional insecurity i think. You're unlucky but keep trying and don't let it go.

mrz · 16/02/2011 16:56

My class graph would be an upside down bell curve (sorry tried to think of another way to describe it so hope it makes sense)

foxinsocks · 16/02/2011 20:32

Hi RMCW

I think it's hard for summer children and I hope you get some encouragement from my post! Dd was a very late starter and didn't actually write a proper sentence until year 2. She couldn't hold a pencil very well and was one of the last in her class to get her handwriting pen. I was extremely worried about her writing!

But she's now nearing the end of her school life and got voted editor of the school newspaper and it looks like her SATs scores will be good (given where she started!).

We really started to see the difference in year 5 and 6. I have actually heard a lot of summer born children's parents say this. The children suddenly seem a more similar level to those who are older. She also matured at that age, started writing more fluently and school just suddenly seemed to 'click'. Within those school years, she rose several levels in her bandings (having been languishing near the bottom group for all the other school years to suddenly being in the 2nd group for maths and top group for literacy). It was an astonishing improvement but to be fair to the school, they did think this would happen with her lol! It was me who was doing the worrying ;-).

Cortina · 16/02/2011 20:48

Thanks. Boffinmum thanks for your detailed thoughts/explanations very interesting to read.

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RoadArt · 16/02/2011 20:55

I was always convinced that my children were not given hard enough work and that they could do more if they were given the opportunity, but having spent a lot of time in classrooms, I now realise there is a lot more to the work that the teacher covers, and just because maybe homework sheets seem easy, or there isnt much in their books, it doesnt mean they are not being stretched or extended.

I have also seen how the teacher deals with the different abilities, more often than not the kids dont even realise. She might do a general discussion or topic but word questions slightly differently to suit each child. Yet those children will come home and say the work was easy because another child who may be considered as one from the bottom table answered a question.

Children will always say school work is too easy - that way they remember what they have learnt.

I also know that top, middle, bottom groups dont reflect the true abilities of children as a national standard. They might be top in their own class, but if they moved to another class, they could all be bottom because the natural ability of children varies from class to class and school to school.

So, just because your child, or your friend's child or whoever's child is in the top set, does not mean that this child is cleverer, brighter or better than the other child.

A teacher will try and extend every child to progress from their own natural levels, as long as they move forward and learn, it doesnt matter what level they are, and I truly believe that teachers do their best to help all children, despite the negative views of some parents.

PoppetUK · 16/02/2011 20:55

Just responding to the comment that reception is too early to group. I've recently seen some reception grouping in practise for things like phonics. You've got kids that can sound out, blend and attempt to write and you've got other kids that have not mastered this at all, perhaps because they just aren't ready yet. If you have one child that loves to write stories you can't stop them. Making them sit and do the initial phonemes would be madness and also making children sit and attempt work that is too hard for them is just going to wreck confidence. There will always be differences in classes.

Cortina · 16/02/2011 20:59

Just to add Fox that's great news and v encouraging.

My son is a late summer born and I was surprised to find the teacher doesn't appear to think it makes a sizable difference. We have quite a few autumn borns but many have Birthdays around March to May, teacher said the March to Mays are also young in year & no real difference between these and a late summer born even in Y1 and Y2?

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foxinsocks · 16/02/2011 21:11

I suppose it's child dependent isn't it.

I have one child who is November born and one child who is August and I can really tell the difference, especially in those early school years. My November one found it so much easier (he was also the second child which I think makes a difference too) and the level of work he was doing was far above the level dd could manage in those early years. Dd had a lot of friends who also happened to be born in July/August and most were similar to her (though dd was significantly behind in her writing).

I think it's an emotional maturity thing too. Some of the girls who were Sept/Oct born seemed so much older and more sensible than the summer born boys, especially in the infants!

I'm sure there are no hard and fast rules for summer borns but from seeing dd and her friends, it was definitely the earlier years where they struggled the most (compared to the rest of the class).

foxinsocks · 16/02/2011 21:13

so either the ones who surged ahead in the early years level out, or the younger ones just catch up. Not sure which one it is, or whether that always happens, but certainly in our case, dd just seemed to catch up (eventually!).

BoffinMum · 16/02/2011 21:25

A lot of anxiety could be avoided if we more or less got rid of infant schools and started children at 'proper' school at the age of 6/7. That's not to say they wouldn't be educated, if there was a solid kindergarten system. But there would be less measurement, avoiding what sociologists call the 'symbolic ruler' whereby we measure and compare children all the time.

I had an interesting conversation with Estelle Morris a couple of years ago about this, and she said that there would probably have been a case for New Labour being more radical and changing the phases of education to something like 6-14 and 14-19, but the money had been spent on expensive academy arrangements and new buildings instead, which meant a golden opportunity may have been missed. I think I am with her on that.

littlebylittle · 17/02/2011 08:00

Really useful comments roadart about the differentiation that children don't even notice, the directing of questions etc.

RMCW · 17/02/2011 09:20

boffin I completely agree re schooling at 6/7.

foxinsocks Thats so great Smile ds1 came home from school last night and has gone up another level in his reading books Smile He is still nowhere near where the NC say he should be but its progress and he is happy. We make a big deal of it.

Its parents evening next month and he will get a treat if its good report Smile

My cousin lives in Austria and her youngest ds (just turned 7) has only just started school. School starts earlier and finishes earlier and there is a much better home/school balance. I wish it was like that here Sad

ElinElin · 17/02/2011 09:34

I agree. I am from Sweden and there we also start later (age 6) and shorter days. I suppose shorter days would be a problem if you are a working parent but in Sweden childcare is better/more affordable and work more flexible. Before my dd started school I used to think that it is too early starting school at 4/5, but then after looking at the school and talking to people I thought maybe it is fine. School said that in reception it is a lot of play, they get sent some homework but that is more to get them used to the idea etc etc. But reality is it is a lot of learning (which would be fine) but it's the pressure to learn that is the problem. Dividing them in to groups of ability at age of 4. My initial fear that it is too much too young has now come back unfortunately.