A call to primary school teachers - can you explain groups please ?

[TheBFactor]

I was just wondering if there are any primary school teachers out there who explain how children are assessed to be placed in groups?

If a child is non-SEN and non-EFL is it usual to place them within such a group across the whole of Key Stage 1 and 2?

Do children get catagorised or grouped together on the basis of attitude/behaviour or simply on English and Maths ability?

Well it is very bad practice to have an 'EAL group'. If you put all the kids who can't speak English together - how will they learn to speak English?

Also, obviously not all children with SEN will be of low ability. (not sure how you would know which children have SEN and which don't)

Kids learn English very quickly, so their language would not remain a problem all through KS1 and KS2.

Some schools group by ability, some don't.

Sometimes one table is supported by a TA and all children who need extra help for any reason are placed on that table ( also bad practice)

There is no way to tell how your school groups.

But good practice is to either not group children by ability, or to be assigned to a maths group, a literacy group, and an afternoon table of mixed ability.

Do you think your child has behaviour problems? Or do you think he is having to do work which is too easy for him?

I always had mixed ability tables of four/six in my KS2 classroom but would move children very regularly for different activities. I grouped by 'friendships' by 'effort' by 'ability' by 'behaviour' even by 'sex' at different times. Often a child would work in two/three different groups or pairings each day for different subjects/lessons.

Assessment is both formal (tests etc.) and informal (teacher's hunch/belief in attainment levels etc.) It should be ongoingand very flexible to really work well for each child.

"There is no way to tell how your school groups."

YES there is ....... ask!

Added to candleshoes list of groupings, I also add personal choice, the children can ask to move between groups depending on their confidence in the topics covered.

However on the 'it's bad practice to group EAL together point' sometimes it's not if they're doing a very targeted activity with a TA or the teacher needs to assess their progress and the quickest way to do that is to put them all together. Occasionally pupils do need targeted help developing particular areas of language despite having good general fluency and being able to interact with their peers. But that's grouping for a particular activity, not as a general rule.

Just wanted to say that before anyone worries that their child has once or twice spent an afternoon doing specific EAL activities.

We have 'study places' for RE/topic/music etc and ability groups for literacy and mathematics. We check them 6 times a year and also sometimes move children mid term.

Spanieleyes you are quite right I forgot to add 'self-selection' to my list.

Crikey, you are me!

At our school they had 3 different groupings. One was for literacy (based on literacy ability, obviously), one for numeracy and one for other/activities (mostly afternoons - these were mixed ability groups).

The groups were also reviewed regularly and changes happened very regularly.

It made it easier for the teacher to differentiate the work appropriately for the children.

At our school they are grouped by ability, with no regular changes of groups it seems. Something that is now being reviewed by the KS1 manager as there are lots of parents not happy with things. I find the parents in ds' class to be obsessive about the groupings, top tables, lowest ability groups all made very obvious to children and parents. For eg sone get 5 spellings a week, some 6 and some 8. (year 1 by the way). Some children have been getting the spellings right for weeks/months and are never given more or moved up for some reason. It's interesting to hear how other schools do things.

In my class children are grouped according to the six names they put down on the 'children I work well with and children I am friends with' sheet. I undertake to put them with at least one of the names unless they've not included a mix of genders/have repeated names.

It makes for mixed performance groups for the majority of lessons but when I do guided groups in maths/literacy I call over the children I want to work with - that group may be formed along gender lines/performance-based/area of interest (or difficulty or excellence). It prevents children who have spent from Reception upto Y4 within the same 'ability' groups becoming stuck in a rut or becoming over-dependent upon a TA (if we're lucky enough to have one). It also helps children to appreciate that different people have different areas of strength/difficulty. I have a child in my Y4 class who can barely read/write/calculate but his problem solving and shape/space skills are extraordinarily advanced - if he was always on the 'bottom' table what opportunity would there be for him to 'shine'?

The parents of my class don't like my approach, not because they think their children aren't progressing (I encourage the children to bring parents in at the end of the day to show off work they're proud of) but because they're finding it hard to judge their child's position in the class! A couple have complained that X is no longer sitting on Y's table - they found it hard to believe that their children had been correct; that, except for specific teaching, I don't group by performance.

SE13 - I've admired a lot of your posts for a while now - but I so wish DD could be in your class :(

Her being consistently on the bottom table is not doing her any favours. Not because she is not struggling - obviously she is struggling hugely - but because, like you said, no one struggles at everything.

Her EP report came in this week (after only a year and half of pushing :)) - and it said her 'cognitive abilities' are in the 98th percentile! ( Where 100 is the best not the worst )

School were really shocked. And are now under a lot of pressure to explain why her results are so dismal in every subject.

But I think it is clear that ability grouping is stopping school getting anything like her potential from her....

(To be clear to anyone who doesn't know the history. She is doing very badly at school and definitely 'deserves' to be on the bottom table.)

SE13, I think your approach is superb!

The problem with ability groups across the board is that the children become all too aware of it, and for those at the bottom its often a deflating experience.

We were just doing spellings with ds (Y1) and he said 'X only gets 5 spellings because he's on the baby table.' Just out of the blue. I put him straight, but that's probably what the children call it.

On the other side my niece is ever so bright academically, and has been told this so much for so long, now struggles to get her head through the door.

Thanks everyone for your honest replies. The truth is despite being a teacher myself, I am so petrified of the teachers my husband and I haven't even dared open our mouths to
ask WHY ds is where he is.

No he does not display behaviour that is ABNORMAL for his age and gender. It takes a caring teacher to appreciate that.

A boy left my son's class last year - his parents complained to me in private that they had felt "bullied" by the teachers and Head.

I should have pulled him out at the end of of Y1. The only thing that stopped me was the close bond he has with his classmates.

The worst thing is, and the other parents who left said the same thing, they have got us so paranoid we are putting extra pressure on our boys - unnecessary stress and anxiety just because everyone is so obssessed with Ofsted and their blasted ratings.

I hate myself for slowly becoming what I never ever wanted to be, the pushy parent worried about what other parents think of us and the blasted "group". It's total paranoia created quiet effectively by the school. I am now sure it is done deliberatley to run people out of the school.

It's terrible. It's affecting our family life. We need to leave this dreadful school.