A foreign mum's perspective: Our experiences of Primary School...

[MyOneAndOnly]

I am sure this specific subject about parental involvement in your child?s schooling, has been done before many times but recently I started to think long and hard about it again and my old discomfort in this subject has cropped up, I really need to get it off my chest.

I must add, I do not intend to criticise UK education system. I genuinely want to work with this system but from our own personal experiences, it does not seem to be very user-friendly, I genuinely feel that I am not part of it and I am hoping to gain some perspective maybe, if you come and tell your opinions.

My problem is: I have a 5.5 yrs old dd and I have absolutely no idea what is going on in her school life apart from bits of info that dd tells me when I ask her specifically. But they are not reliable info AFAIK as she is oly 5.5 and not mature enough to let me know what she has been going at school in reliable detail. Her judgement is influenced by how much fun she had during the day and she only tells me bits and pieces that made her happy or sad etc, such as her relationships with the other kids etc which are all emotional stuff which is fine but, I have no clue about academic stuff. And to me, being so clueless does feel wrong. I know I should be more involved, but how? There are no parent helpers in her class, not sure if there should be, so, I cannot volunteer.

I am originally from another country and therefore I have experienced a whole different style of schooling and it is very different to my DD?s schooling experience. I have the following immediate reasons why I feel uncomfortable:

1-) One of the reasons is because it is a mixed year class combining year 1 and 2, total of 30 kids ranging from 5.5 years old (my dd) to 7 years olds. All in the same class, sharing the same teacher?s precious time. How could it work out? Not very effectively, I think .

Okay, teacher gives individual targets to each pupil etc but how effective and reliable can they be within two different classes and within each class being many different levels? Teacher is only a young lady who is apparently in her third year of becoming a teacher. I totally respect her professionalism and her training but.. number of kids, range of levels within two year groups in the same class etc? it is definitely less than ideal, even for an experienced teacher who has been doing this work for years.

2-) Where I came from, there are text books in the schools. Parents buy the books at the beginning of the academic year and parents can see at a glance, what the kids are going to learn throughout the year. These books are guidance for kids and parents and it is the backbone of what they learn week by week, month by month, all year. Parents can assess where their kids are struggling or doing well etc and also can supplement these subjects with extra curricular stuff. It is a golden opportunity for parents to feed the child?s mind at home, with the curriculum related info. If I know that she is learning about, for instance; sea creatures (or whatever else it may be), I may take her to an aquarium or museum etc or even talk about it etc but if I don?t know that, I will not. So, currently I feel that what she is supposed to be learning, is staying within the school, it is not getting supported at home. A missed opportunity.

There are no text books, no other source of info apart from once a week spelling sheet and three times a week reading books? These are precious years when kids? minds are so open to knowledge. It is a short lasted window of opportunity but we are not using it to our advantage because no feedback from the school in the form of some lesson plans given to parents. Am I totally missing something?

One example: apparently she had learnt about Florence Nightingale before Christmas and I only found out about it recently. Had no idea. I could have taken her to a museum on a weekend. I still can do it now but the high-time is gone. It is a missed opportunity. Whatever subject covered in the class, stayed in the class. Such a shame.

3-) Also in my opinion there should be end of term personal progress reports showing child?s level in each subject and how it is developing. So parents can see how the child is doing and take remedial action before it is too late. It also opens up communication between teachers & parents. Surely, it is very useful. Some people may say it is unnecessary competition and puts kids under pressure too early. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with knowing your level compared to what is expected of you, it is a very positive thing. The pressure of knowing your level, can be handled sensitively and beautifully and it could turn into a win-win situation. Personal progress report in written form should be available more frequently, at the end of each term. And definitely NOT once a year which is at the very last day of academic year when there is no room for even slightest discussion. This is what happened to us last year. At the very last day: this is your report, here you go!

This week dd?s school has coffee morning where I will have a chance to talk to the headmaster as well as teachers. I would appreciate it if you other parents, tell me what you think about all these.

Thanks a million in advance and sorry for the long essay.

what have you done so far to find out what happens? i mean, you don't want to go head long into a letter to the governors without first just talking to the class teacher do you?

OP, I understand why you find it difficult to get your head around the UK system. I have lived in other countries where the approach is very different, and I can see why you might feel in the dark with regard to what is going on. My OH is from overseas, and he went through a very traditional education system himself - he also struggles to understand what dd (year 1) is doing in school.

I get what you're saying about textbooks, and of course it's nice to know what the children are learning in school, but from my own experience, I would say that I am very pleased that we don't follow that approach here, as it seems way too rigid for me. As it has turned out, my dd is doing very well at school, and she is quite advanced compared to her peers. If the whole class were working to a textbook with the same learning objectives for everyone, I suspect that she would be terribly bored in school. Fortunately, without the constraints of a textbook, the teacher is free to differentiate the work, and she therefore has targets that are appropriate to her ability rather than her age. And likewise for all of the children, I presume, regardless of their ability.

With regard to knowing what is going on in school, it does sound as if your school is rather bad at communicating. In case there are any ideas that might help, I am listing the communication that we have from our school below:

• Monthly newsletter with general information about what is going on in the school; this is also available on the website
• "Study Outline" at the beginning of each half-term, giving details of the topics to be covered, main areas to be explored in literacy & numeracy and additional aspects of the curriculum (also available on the website)
• Weekly notice on whiteboard outside the classroom, stating what children will be doing that week (This was updated daily for children in reception)
• Half-termly "homework framework" suggesting ideas as to what parents can do at home to support their children (e.g. number games etc)
• Termly parents' evenings, at which we are given NC levels etc. The only written report is at the end of the year.
• Home/school communication book - mainly used as a reading records, but teachers and parents can also use to communicate other messages
• Annual "curriculum evenings" to explain to parents how a particular aspect of the curriculum is taught (e.g. reading, writing, numeracy etc)
• Monthly "tea-time" with the head teacher
• Annual opportunity for parents to spend an afternoon in school with their children, observing how they are taught
• Termly "open classroom" afternoons, when parents can go and look at work on display
• Sessions specifically aimed at parents from overseas to explain aspects of the curriculum eg phonics etc
• Text-messaging service with reminders for parents about general school info etc

In addition to the above, we quite often get little notes in the book bag from the teacher, asking if children have items at home that they could bring into school in order to support the children's learning etc. So all in all, I feel that we have a pretty good idea of what is going on, and it's easy to take children to museums etc at the weekend to support this learning. Perhaps you could ask if the school might consider implementing any of the above?

Incidentally, you also mentioned homework, and I thought you might be interested in what my dd's school does in this area. She gets two weeks or more for each homework assignment, and it is usually related in some way to whatever they are doing in school - sometimes doing "research" before they start a topic, or sometimes looking at things from a slightly different angle. At the end of each half-term, she is asked to summarise what she has learnt for that topic, and this can be very enlightening - and actually very impressive to see how much has actually been covered in school. I have really enjoyed helping her work on these homeworks, as it gives me a much better insight into what she is learning at school and how she is being taught.

Sorry, rather a long and rambling post, but perhaps you might get a few ideas to mention to your headteacher!

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/18687 This is what most Year one classes follow for maths

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/150262 This is what most year one classes follow for Literacy.

I'm a teacher and would be very happy to discuss that goes on in my room with any parent of a child in my class. go and see the teacher and chat! I don't get why parents are so scared of us!

Sorry, those links don't work, but if you copy and paste and click primary - you should see where to go!

If you can find out the topic for the week/fornight/halfterm. It will get covered from every angle.
My Yr2 DD has just started on Mary Seacole. So they discover the history which is the obvious subject, but it also gets covered in Geography (where did she come from & where did she go etc, ICT - they will research facts about her, Literacy - they will write out her story, Art - draw pictures of the hospital or her, Numeracy - what did she sell in the shop what could you buy if you had this much money, how much change would you get.

If you ask the teacher if she wants any help in the class, this would help you see how this works in practice. You may be lucky, I needed some school experience before I could get my current job and this gave me a huge insight in how things worked in schools. As it has changed massively since I was a child.

"If you can find out the topic for the week/fornight/halfterm. It will get covered from every angle.
My Yr2 DD has just started on Mary Seacole. So they discover the history which is the obvious subject, but it also gets covered in Geography (where did she come from & where did she go etc, ICT - they will research facts about her, Literacy - they will write out her story, Art - draw pictures of the hospital or her, Numeracy - what did she sell in the shop what could you buy if you had this much money, how much change would you get."

I am truly fascinated by the way they do this in primary schools tbh, and I think it's brilliant to approach topics in this inter-disciplinary way. Our teachers are so fabulous at weaving together the different strands of the curriculum into one overarching topic for the half-term, I am always amazed and in awe of how they manage to do it.

oneand only,
why don't you actually volunteer to be a school governor? pretty much every lea is desperate for volunteers. ask if your school has a parent governor place vacant, or an lea place? get into the school on visits, learn what goes on inside the walls, get some training (the governor training has some very good courses on all sorts of things) and start to have some input into the way the school is run and managed.

you sound passionate about education, and keen to enable every individual child to reach their potential. just volunteer and get yourself trained up to be able to effect positive change.

Thank you all lovely ladies. Lots of wonderful insights here. I am at work now so I will not be able to reply longer, but on my lunchbreak I will read all replies and gather my thoughts and will write again.
I do appreciate your time...

Most schools have a parents evening each term where parents get a chance to talk to the teacher and see their children's work.

When my two were in reception the school hosted a film session where we could view what the children had been up to in the first three weeks.

There is always a chance to speak to the class teacher.

All of the above are typical of most schools.

On a more technical note, schools monitor all children to ensure that they continue to improve. Schools generally keep a database of all children's attainment levels. Ask your head about Raiseonlines....

If they're not doing this, then the school will get into trouble with Ofsted. Sometimes, if a school has a middleclass intake with good year 6 sats results, schools can get away with less performance monitoring.

In conclusion, British Schools are very play and investigative based for young children but very rigid for teachers (who are expected to monitor everything!) As children get older it all gets more formal.

Some schools actually publish their schemes of work, and make them available to parents via their website, and through sessions run in school (after school or at weekend) where they introduce the work your children will cover so parents can support learning.

Maybe ask the class teacher about this?
As liby posted above, the national curriculum and national strategies stuff is all online too which may be a useful starting point.

Okay, I am back. Thank you very much to all of you.

pointythings and mathanxiety and UniS, the level of communication you mention, are what we are looking for.

And magicmummy1, these are great pointers for me to take away and adapt to my conversation with the head teacher on Friday.

I have looked at the links sent by ladybirdlittle and liby. Thanks for the links. Soooo useful. I will be printing the contents of these. Maybe I will not pester the teacher too much after having them. You see, a little bit knowledge goes such a long way. Actually having access to these links for literacy and numeracy, makes me think that I can improvise with my own home-teaching and leave some bits to school and take on some others with greater detail and it will be so positive for me and dd doing some personalised learning together. Now I feel so much more in control . This is great!

Our parents evenings are twice a year, one was in beginning of October and the next one is beginning of April. Could be more frequently but I will ask to see teacher if I have anything to raise more urgently.

Becoming a school governor is what I have been thinking about for a while, too. I am not very clued up about what do they do but will find out. I was lost in details and was not sure what to tackle first, now I know a bit more and I am definitely motivated.

Our current headmaster is, in my opinion, rather defensive & wanting to be seen as a very competent person & wanting to be looked upon, so this needs careful handling if I need to have changes.

My opinion of our school is that; communication needs to improve and I will do my bit...

Thank you so much... I have learnt a lot, the curriculum, what are the standards in other schools... all these.

As some posters have already mentioned our son's ex-school (he could't get in for YR ) used to put the weekly schedule (even for the nursery) of what topics they were covering this week, e.g. literacy->sounds, weather, maths and how parents could help at home. They had this put at both the website and the classroom. I asked his teacher at his new school if they could do the same and she immediately said no. Termly information about topics to be taught is very vague. It's a bit like an Atlas which mentions in its contents all the continents on which page but does not break it down to groups of countries on which page.

And the termly review: our son according to it could count up to ..10!?? While she admitted that he can count much more and she does additions up to 10 with him

Yes ninai, it is like banging your head on a brick wall. I feel stuck.

But I am determined to change things for us :).

As you come from overseas, why are you trying to teach your DC, who is only 5, so early. Surely, you know that the argument here is not to teach so formally until children are older. You sound a bit like a tiger mother to me. I have had three DC go through the UK system, all are now in secondary and I can honestly say that I am very pleased with their education. We use time at home to have discussions about all sorts of topics. Also, reading is the best thing that children can do to supplement the school teaching.

Also, why are you so worried about homework. Let children be children for a bit, surely. Life's too short to get het-up about this sort of thing.

I don't think she sounds like a tiger mother at all!! What is wrong about wanting to be involved in your child's education? There is an assumption in this country that because children are in school for 32 hours a week it means that parents are irrelevant and it's up to the school to do everything. In a class of 30, teachers don't have the time to give lots of one-to-one attention to each child (especially if you have a range of abilities in the cohort). Therefore parents need to supplement this. And anyway, isn't it nice and useful to be able to talk to your child about their school life? At the age of 5 I do agree that the only homework they need is reading. I think oneandonly just wants homework as a way to find out what her child is learning! But this could be done by more detailed half termly newsletters and opportunities to see her class in action. By the way do primary schools not use textbooks from year 4? Used in isolation they can be dull but I am sure teachers would have the initiative to supplement textbook work with other stuff. It has to be said that the primary education system is not world class or even great - look at how the pupils cope when they reach secondary school and you just have to look at the GCSE results in the whole of the country to work out something is going wrong somewhere! That's the way things stand but it means that parents have to compensate: not pushy, just realistic. It can just be 15 minutes a day of 'learning' that would make a difference.

MyOneAndOnly,
I have been where you are. Thank you for your post. Mumsnet has been my main source of knowledge. It always makes me smile when someone asks about 'book band levels' or whatever and someone else answers something like 'why do you want to know if your child is 2b, 2c....'

Well, because I do not even understand what you mean by book band or by 2a, 2b, etc. There is no explanation whatsoever coming from the school (at least, my school). This is particularly hard on foreing parents who have not been through the systme themselves.

You (and I, and I am sure many others lost in the system) have got lots of information from this post. Keep reading. MN is fantastic for this.

I too get very when people assume that you shouldn't be interested in what your child is doing at school, and supporting them at home.

It's as if you're supposed to just hand them over to the State at 4 years old and not get involved with or ask questions about what they are doing.

As a parent who is also not familiar with the system, it sometimes feels very much like the parents are treated as an inconvenient appendage to the child, only good for getting them off the premises at the end of the day, rather than a partner in their learning and development.

I asked my son's school to provide weekly topic lists for YR,Y1 & Y2 as I had no idea what he was doing. It really helped because we could do relevant things at home, bring appropriate things to school.

Its not just about the serious stuff its about helping your child engage with school e.g. they were doing about travel one week so I found an old boarding pass with DS's name on it, he took it in and the class (YR) pretended to fly on holiday.

The system works really well in a good school, where there's strong leadership and motivated teachers - then the lack of rigid structure is a plus, because it allowes for a more creative, flexible approach.
In a not-so-good school the lack of a rigid structure is more of a minus as creativity and flexibility can turn into chaos, and teachers barely cover the basics.
My kids have experienced both, and the difference is huge.

This IS a brilliant post! MistyValley - I also feel that I am treated as in incovenience when I ask about my child's education and that the school is seen as an extension of breakfast club! I am not an overseas parent by the way. I was educated here but the system has changed so much, especially how children are taught to read. In my day, there wasn't such an emphasis on learning to read at such a young age. ChazsBrilliantAttitude - good for you for asking for weekly topic lists and brilliant that your school helped with this. Vess- that's a really good point about both your children's experiences. I think there needs to be more of a balance so that children learn the basics and have a creative curriculum. I am sure you can have both!

Thank you very much again. Our coffee morning did not go really well, as the school (or rather the head teacher) is relly defensive and any question is treated with "There is a system in place and we know what we are doing" attitude.

For instance, there was and after school cooking club in operation, once a week, and my dd got a place, so we were happy with that but at the end of the day she never come home with a recipe or anything, although she wanted to show us what she had been preparing in the cookery club.. but was not sure of the ingredients. So on the second week, I phoned the school and asked kindly if it was possible to receive the recipes so that kids can do the same at home again... The person from the front office who took my call, said she'll pass the message to the teacher concerned and that was it. Weeks gone by, no recipe sent home and I did nothing else about it.
On the coffee morning this Friday, I mentioned this to school staff, which are: head teacher's secretary, and a learning mentor as they both had came to our table and asked about parents' comments so I mentioned them amongst other things. Both agreed that it was a reasonable and simple request which should have been acknowledged and replied to... Then lastly I caught the head teacher, she was enthusiastically talking about her new initiatives and projects but without the time frame so it was up in ther air really. And I casually mentioned about the recipe example, she told me exactly this: " Miss XYZ is doing the cookery club in her free time and she does not even have to do it, but volunteered to do it. She is such a good cook! I cannot ask her to write recipes and distribute !" I found this rather a lame excuse, very weak coming from a head teacher. Am I wrong?

I mean is this teacher XYZ doing it as a favour to the school so any little thing she can give should be taken gratefully and we must not ask any more from her? Can the head teacher not ask her nicely?

I had given the example of the lack of recipes for cookery club, in the context of school not communicating to us what is going on within the school...

I find that in our specific example, the head teacher may (or may not) have good intentions and good plans. But definitely not interested in changing anything unless the idea comes from herself, and herself only.
I know she takes these as critisism and puts barricades. You may think a head teacher would be more of a people person and can would be more able to and used to managing people including parents' requests and can implement changes smoothly or explain better. But in our school it is not.

She is just a human being after all with all her weaknesses and strenghts. As a parent I am not sure what her strengths are, I am sure there are some though...

Not an immediate decision but I am going to look at the options of changing schools too. Not yet sure how difficult it is.

My own mother who was a beacon teacher before she got retired, used to say that a head tacher can make or break a school. My translation is not perfect but I believe it conveys the meaning as it was intended.

Oh MyOneandOnly, I know exactly what you mean. I'm also an overseas parent, and could have written your OP. Our school also treats any request for information, no matter how trivial, as an insult and intrusion. Meetings with the teacher yield no idea of the level DC are working at, only a patronising assurance that all is well, dear, don't worry your mama head about it, the grown-ups are in control.

I asked at the beginning of DC1's reception meeting with the teachers, what the children would be working on - in general - throughout the year, and what basic skills they would be expected to acquire over the course of the year. (Count to 10? Simple sums? Advanced calculus? Read CVC words, or the whole Harry Potter series?) This question was regarded as harrassing and pointless and most of all unanswerable. If I wanted to know about teaching targets, I could print out the entire KS1 (what THAT? I wondered at the time) strategy from the DoE website.

Things have not gotten better.

Anyway, back to you, I'm really sorry the coffee morning was a wash-out. Your school takes a terrible attitude to parents (please go away and let us do our jobs), and that's really sad.

Now that you know what you're looking for, do you think there's another neighbourhood school worth considering?

Have you asked if you could be parent-helper in your child's class? And if not in their class, then in another similar age group class?

Oneandonly - make or break is the exact phrase.

Our school is like yours. Very poor communication. It is easier as the children get older and can tell you more.