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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Grammar School

21 replies

mistymom · 27/01/2011 21:17

At the end of year 4 my dd got level 3a's and 4c's in her optional sats. She's said she would like to go to a grammar school. Do you think that by the end of year 5 she would be good enough to take the 11 plus exam. I don't want to encourage her if she is not grammar school material. What level do you think she should be on at the end of year 5 to be good enough. Thanks in advance. x

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bb99 · 27/01/2011 21:20

What do her teachers say?

Original poster

mistymom · 27/01/2011 21:36

Since she's been in year 5 her normal teacher's been off sick. So they have had lots of supply teachers. They don't stay long enough to get to know the children in the class. So far she's had 4 supply teachers.

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Greeninkmama · 27/01/2011 21:41

If that is what she says she wants, then you might as well go for it. Do you think she is bright? Is she in the top groups? That's a better indication than SAT levels, I think.

If you do want to go for it, I would start now. Much better to build up slowly than cram madly over the summer. FInd out what tests the grammar school does and buy the appropriate test books from WHSmith or similar. Then she can just do a couple of tests a week. You should go through her papers and pinpoint any weak areas and work on them together. Someone told me that doing wordsearches was really helpful (I forget why!).

Getting into a grammar school isn't just about aptitude - it is a lot to do with how much you prepare. That's why lots of the kids who get in are from private schools.

squidgy12 · 27/01/2011 21:46

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Original poster

mistymom · 27/01/2011 22:08

Thanks for your replies. Yes she is in top sets, but i feel she is not the brightest in her sets. Is there a certain level she will need to be before she will be able to take the tests.

OP posts:

Greeninkmama · 27/01/2011 22:45

My DSS did his first ones in the summer of Y5, and managed fine I think. Lots of mistakes of course, but we marked them together and discussed the answers. You might as well just try one or two- don't do entire papers of course and stress to DD that mistakes are interesting because they show you what to focus on etc.

IndigoBell · 28/01/2011 09:16

Depends on the competition for the grammar schools. Do they take the top 25%? top 10%? what? You really need to find that out.

Don't know if the 11+ forum can tell you more about the particular school you are thinking of.

Her scores are 'above average', but not 'well above average'.

Tutoring obviously will help. And a local tutor will be able to tell you more about the grammar school you are thinking of....

Also depends what tests the grammar school does. Does it do verbal and non verbal reasoning? Maths? English?

rabbitstew · 28/01/2011 09:51

Agree with Indigobell - grammar schools are not the same everywhere in the country. Where I grew up, the top 25% went to grammar school and everyone took the 11 plus unless they specifically opted out of it; it wasn't something you had to opt into. You ought, therefore, to find out exactly what the system is near you before you assess the likelihood of your dd getting in.

kayah · 28/01/2011 09:56

have look at
www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/index.php

where do you live?

ElsieR · 28/01/2011 10:04

A grammar school is great if your child is up to it.
If your child gets in thanks to a very good tutor but is not actually as able as the other children, she might spend her school career feeling stupid and behind everyone else. I have seen pupils like that and really felt they would be better off on the top of the class in a good comprehensive than at the bottom of a grammar school.
It is good idea to do a few practice papers before the test though, so she knows what to expect.

sassyjo · 28/01/2011 14:43

As other people have said, preparation is key. My son did the 11+ in September, worked hard and achieved a high score. If you're daughter is interested, I would get started now.

In reference to your question about levels, in Year 5 his school said children needed to be attaining Level 5 at the end of Year 5 to be in with a good chance of passing, which he was at. This would roughly equate to achieving Level 4C/4B at end of Year 4. But each school awards levels differently and some schools won't give higher than 4C in Year 4 and 4A in Year 5.

It's all a bit confusing regarding the levels. So the main thing is to have a go, encourage your daughter and let her know it's not the end of the world if she doesn't pass. Hope this helps.

fircones · 28/01/2011 15:14

Just beware. Grammar schools are not full of the top anything %! We live in an area with Grammar schools. My daughter had level 5's at the end of year 5, in top groups right through school and has not gained enough marks to go to grammar. Three children, put by teachers in a strech group, one got through. It happens every year and children, some receiving sats support get through. Some children are heavily tutored.

I tell her you cannot fail the 11+. She says I don't know what the dictionary definition of fail is. It is a ghastly system. And choice has nothing to do with it - you have to pass the test on the day. In her mind she failed. In my mind she is bright and motivated. She is fine, we were very careful about expectation, but she does tell people she failed.

She wants to do physics - it is not an option for her at the school she will now go to.

katiestar · 28/01/2011 19:16

Traditional grammar schools ie those with a catchment area , take the top 28% (ie 2/7) but many grammar schools don't have a catchment area and take in a much smaller %age.
However be aware many schools use verbal and non verbal reasoning tests which are designed to test potential rather than attainment.

katiestar · 28/01/2011 19:18

Fircones-Why can she not do physics? surely all schools would offer that?

fircones · 28/01/2011 20:04

She will be able to do physics as a combined science.

My frustration is that no matter how able you are if you don't pass the 11+ you don't have the same choices - no matter how bright you are.

She is expected to come out with a very good set of level 5 sats and I know this is a horrible phrase but has been in the 'top' group through school. She comes home from the library with physics and classical history books and these are her self selected interests. I have no aptitude in these subjects.

At the grammar those subjects are part of the choices available at the secondary school they are not.
I don't mind where she goes but I want her to have the same chances and choices as every other child. She is 10 years old and already her options are limited.

seimum · 28/01/2011 20:10

Fircones - my DS goes to a grammar, but they only do the combined science GCSE option (not 3 separate sciences) - I think it's because they are a humanities specialist school.
You can still do Physics a level with combined science, as long as your grades are good neough

kayah · 29/01/2011 14:40

is 3 separate sciences in my dd school

fircones - is amazing to have dd like yours with interest at an eraly age
go ant talk to her new school, I would speak to her form teacher and the head of science and stress your dd interests
I am sure they can find a way to get extra provision for her
if 14 yolds can go to college to do vocational subjects - your dd can go to another school to do physics GCSE
in any case with new emphasis on science
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7982716/English-Baccalaureate-to-combat-drop-in-academic-GCSEs.html

there's a chance that in her new school they will try to proide for more sciences, but don't let them fob you off - they may on the basis on lack of resources and whatheer...

should your school be reluctant - I would then try to contact grammar school and enquire directly there
they like challenge and who knows - may even be able to put her on a waiting list...

fircones · 01/02/2011 15:27

Thanks for your advice kayah.

The tricky part is that she is one of a class of 30. I don't want to go around making a fuss for my dd, and as she quietly get on with things - she won't want me to.

As I said in the grammar system this happens to children like my dd every year. For children who demonstrate they are high achievers year on year there should also be some say from the school. And children should not then have the double knock of not getting through the 11+ and then being denied access to subjects when they have both the capability and the interest. However the system creates such pressure amongst parents that it would be awful for the teachers.

Anyway we've just managed to find some exciting numeracy tuition in a small group which seems to be making up for 'boring sats numeracy.'

I'm not giving up on the physics or her other expressed interest. I just feel we have a lots of raised eyebrows ahead of us and pushy parent labels stuck on her notes.

mummymellymoo · 01/02/2011 15:56

I completely second what ElsieR said. I was grammar-school educated in an area that only had selective education. Tutoring will obviously help an able child with 11-plus exam practice but I'd be very wary about tutoring just to get a child in who otherwise wouldn't have. I know it was a long time ago but at my grammar school, the less able ones were definitely left behind as teachers expected and presumed a high level of ability. To be honest, those who are borderline at 11-plus would definitely be better off in a top set at an alternative school rather than always feeling a failure at grammar. I don't think going to a grammar is necessarily always the be-all and end-all. And for what it's worth, our school only offered combined science GCSE and then you could specialise at A-level.

GrimmaTheNome · 01/02/2011 16:03

OP - you should ask the GS about what sort of levels they'd expect. This sort of thing is not a dark secret - we can only guess, they know . If you go to their open day they may well say (my DDs did, like sassy's the guide was level 5s at the end of Yr5)

fircones · 01/02/2011 17:03

No you are right grammar certainly not the be-all and end-all, I'm not a fan of the system, it is socially devisive. So many families tutor, in an area of deprivation you can easily see how the system works.

We have fabulous local junior schools however the 'choices' of school feel very different when it comes to senior school.

Hey ho.

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