Any Teachers with experience in supporing children with dyscalculia? Or KS1 teachers with maths specialism

[ClaireyFairy82]

I have a class of year 3 children. 1 child really concerns me as the gap between her and the others (for maths) just gets bigger and bigger all the time. I have done a calculation audit with her and she's working within level 1 (year 1). She can order numbers but she struggles to count on or back, identify odd or even numbers, even with apparatus.

We started power of 2 (but parts of this are too hard for her), she has 2 sessions of RM maths per week, and might start number shark.

She has been using numicon on a regular basis, 1:1 twice a day with my TA then our KS1 HLTA, unifix, dienes, number lines and number squares (am I using too many?)

Has anyone had any experience in getting a child diagnosed? I have asked SENCO to have her seen by Ed Psych, but appointments are almost impossible to get round here.

I'm concerned that we're already almost 1/2 way through the year. Any suggestions?

I was going to suggest numicon as it seems to have an amazing impact on our SEN KS2 children but I see you have already tried that. Maybe stop all the other things and just concentrate on numicon for a few weeks?
I'm not KS1 by the way, but I am a leading maths teacher so might be able to help.

Have you ever had any children diagnosed with dyscalculia? Is it a similar process to dyslexia?

I have been teaching for 7 years, across key stage 2 in 3 different schools, but I have never come across a child like her. She doesn't even realise she has 5 fingers on one hand!

She was on a numicon programme for most of last year (Y2), and I don't think it's made a great deal of impact from what I've seen this year. We can keep plodding on with it - but I'm becoming increasingly worried about the lack of progress.

No never had a formal diagnosis - but we don't really go for formal diagnosis's of dyslexia either - the EPs are so stretched.
I guess you will have to keep pressing for some outside agency input but I knoe how hard that can be to get. Can you encourage her parents to be a bit more pushy? That might get things moving.

Like dyslexia a label of dyscalculia doesn't solve the problem only provides a reason for a child's difficulties.
We have had good results with a programme called Sympohony Maths but it is hugely expensive.

I don't know how a diagnosis would lead to any more support than she is getting already. A diagnosis could only be based on a discrepancy between her numeracy ability and other abilities so can I ask if her reading and writing are good?

Often children with dyscalculia have normal or above average verbal skills and good visual memory of printed words

She is lower ability in reading and writing, but is making progress and doesn't have any sympoms of dyslexia. Her writing is 2c and her reading is 2b. I understand that a diagnosis in itself will not solve the problems, but I'm prepared to try anything that might give us more scope to help her.

I don't always have a class TA during maths lessons and I can't sit with her every lesson, because other children also need support/stretching. She struggles to do even the most basic of maths independently e.g. adding 1/number bonds to 10 (even with numicon).

I'm maths co, and just spend loads of getting RM maths in. I will have a look into Symphony, but my budget till April is blown :0)

I would go right back to basics with her and lots of "over learning"

symphonylearning.com/overview/overview/

CecilyP and mrz re: your comments regarding a discrepancy between numerical and literacy ability - my child is the same, she is currently working at a level 3b in numeracy but 4a/5c for literacy, is this enough of a discrepancy to be thinking about discalcula (Sp?)Its been at the back of my mind for a while but school havent mentioned it.

sorry lovecheese but I can't recall her age??

year 5 mrz

I'm not a ateacher but experienced in SEN and support; also happen to have dyscalculia, and one of my boys had dyslexia (actually to be exact one has AS and dyslexia, one has asutism, one has dyspraxia and dyslexia and it is him to whom I refer as the ASD complicates eveything in the others LOL).

How good is her English ability and how supportive are the aprents?

Firstly, professional help when a dx from and Ed Psych is difficult to access can be found from two charities, dyscovery centre and BIBIC (BIBIC look as if they deal with more severe SEN: they cover all of them, from dyslexia / dyscalculia onwards). If money not a problem i;d opt for dyscovery but BIBIC still good and can get funding in place. They don't dx so much as work on the actual issues and how to solve them (I think dyscovery can dx, not sure).

WRT to the English question- or it would work in any langauge in fact- I managed to get through stats at college and uni by converting all numbers into longhand words: so five plus seven instead of 5+7. Bizarre but it worked, and I know a few other children who benefit from the technique- worth a shot at least.

lovecheese, I am not very well up on the English primary school levels, but is level 3b about average for a Y5? In which case, it would seem that she is simply average in numeracy and well above average in literacy. I think this is quite common.

I was thinking of more extreme discrepancies like one told me by secondary maths teacher who had a Y11 girl who struggled with the maths that could be done by most Y2s's, but went on to take A levels in modern laguages.

I agree with CecilyP having a lower level in maths compared to English wouldn't be a huge cause for concern on it's own when she is meeting national expectations. If there were other obvious difficulties it would be worth investigation. A 3b doesn't suggest major difficulties with number.

Our school has used the power of 2 in the past to help kids catch up but it's so incredibly boring and I found even when the kids are supposed to be fluent in one section, when I've gone back to check they don't have a clue. And they are bored and restless - you look into their eyes and you can see the Power of 2 is like a punishment, it's not interactive enough - and doesn't require thought - it's too much like Kumon and from the small amount of research I've done of dyscalculia - Kumon is not the answer.

Then show them Maths games on the computer and their faces light up - they become engaged they want to know how to work out problems - they are happy to do work on the white board and use numicon etc to understand visually, so they can run back to the computer and win the game.

I'm not sure whether the children I help have dyscalculia but they are very far behind and half the battle for me is turning around their feeling that Maths is a form of torture, helping them understand that they can do it, it may take a little longer but with effort they'll get there because over the years they have learnt they can't.

She sounds like my daughter, tbh. She was working at 3b (Year 7) until recently. She's just had 10 hours free tutoring with lots of visual stuff going on which seems to have helped her. She's being reassessed next week to see if she's gone up a level. She has recently caught up in her language and literacy. She did Power of 2 and hated it as it was dull. She had 3 sessions a week in primary school. DD excels in drama and dance, so that's the route she'll take.

Ok, that's reassuring, thankyou both.

Instead of going through Power of 2 as it is in the book, my TA has been pre-teaching the concept from a page for a week using practical equipment, then doing the list on Friday. She needs that much reinforcement. I have thought about doing precision teaching, but power of 2 is that anyway.

She gets 2 RM sessions a week, which is an computer programme that find the gaps in individual children's knowledge and is aimed at children from y1-y6 so maybe I should up her sessiosn of that. Symphony looks quite similar.

The girl I'm concerned about doesn't seem to be too worried about her ability in maths at the moment and she works in a group of 2, with boy who also needs to support but he is making more progress. I'm worried that she's being left behind, which may lead to issues around maths later.

Mum is very supportive and has been playing simple games and practising with counters etc at home. But I haven't even mentioned my suspicions about dyscalculia. It's something I've only just started to think about.

Lovecheese - I wouldn't be too concerned if a Y5 was a 3b, as they need to make a level 4 by the end of y6 and she's on track to make 2 sub levels progress before then.

Symphony is very different from the RM programme

Hi there,

I work as a private tutor and have now supported quite a few children who were very behind in Maths and struggling with basic concepts. I would describe as dyscalculic, although most don't have an official diagnosis.

Severe dyscalculia often coincides with dyspraxic-type difficulties. This would be flagged up to me with your pupil not being aware of having 5 fingers on 1 hand.I would suggest you use a screener such as Madelaine Portwood's to see if she has motor/spatial difficulties.

I highly recommend Ronit Bird's book The Dyscalculia Toolkit. Most of the activities are based around cuisenaire rods and it is very user-friendly. There is a CD-Rom of prinatable games etc too. I use this to some extent with all my pupils who are behind and have found it highly effective. She also explains the underlying reasons for these difficulties.

Ronit's approach (and mine) is based on that of Professior Mahesh Sharma. He stresses that each concept in Maths is taught starting with the concrete, moving through pictorial and only then symbolic level and then communications (word problems) etc. He believes this is the most effective approach for all learners at all levels but certainly concrete understanding is vital for dyscalculics.

He has a really useful website. I think it is www.berkshiremathematics.org.uk There are some videos you can buy too, which are very helpful.

Hi I have a yr 5 (9 yr old) on who is dyscalculic with mild dcd / dyspraxia.
He s currently having the schools extra 10 sessions which seem to have made a bit of a difference and might have pulled him from a 2 to a low 3. He has also had springboard which is small group maths work. For the last 3 years I have just regularly reinforced number bonds to 10 and 20 and tried to help him bridge 10 and 100.
Some days it appears to sink in, others not so much.
If you find a system that works I'd love to hear about it... you sound like a great teacher btw

Anything on this dyscalculia website that could be useful to you?

Dyscalculia & Maths Learning Difficulties Conference 2009 excerpts and link to dyscalculia forum

Watching this as I am unashamedly nosy - I want to be a primary teacher specialising in maths :)

Another tutor here seconding the use of Cuisenaire rods and "The Dyscalculia Toolkit" by Ronit Bird. I'd stick to one kind of manipulative as much as possible as I think if children are still thinking in a very concrete way, then too many different manipulatives can be confusing. Personally I like Cuisenaire rods but I know others who favour Numicon.

I've also been quite impressed with Richard Dunne's approach to teaching maths ( There are videos of him teaching on Teacher's TV) and I have adapted his approaches very successfully with some of my students.