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Primary education

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Bit conused about this whole ' reading' thing. reception year.

83 replies

redderthanred · 18/01/2011 15:43

DD cant read. I know this. She doesnt even know all of her letters.

Shes had two reading books last week. One which she could ' read' cover to cover. In any page order.
She was not ' reading' it. She had memorised it.
It was things like ' dad is frustrated' 'kipper is hungry'

So i know she was not reading that. Tachers comments in reading record said ' superb reading'

Today, shes come home with two books and a comment that shes read one already with the teacher. The comment was ' excellent reading, very fleunt and fantastic sounding out when stuck'

This is the book:
Chip wanted some sugar
He went to the supermarket
He got some crisps
he went to the shop
He got a comic
He went to the market
He got a ball
he forgot the sugar.

Ive sat down with her to ' read' it quickly. and yes, she ' read' it. But she didnt really.

Please somone tell me the teacher doesnt actually think shes reading this?

Or, what do i do if she does?

She only started 10 days ago???!?!?!?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
mrz · 23/01/2011 09:43

The OP answered her own question a few pages ago

allchildrenreading · 23/01/2011 11:42

mightnight express -

"Schools simply don't have the funds available to either train teachers in the latest 'gold-standard' reading techniques or to replace entire reading schemes throughout their schools."

Schools shouldn't have to train teachers - University/College training institutes should.
How do you think our written language came to be? 40+ sounds in our language, only 26 letters in the alphabet - the sounds map to letter/letter clusters: it's called the Alphabetic Code. It doesn't cost money to ensure that teachers understand it. SP purely encompasses the latest information and research we have on phonics instruction in order to teach children effectively.

If schools stopped wasting so much money on expensive decodable books with luxurious and completely over-the-top colour (i. distraction, ii. taking money away from decent literature provision for children to read when they have been taught how to decode and blend) there would be enough funds to provide appropriate material for all children.

How do you think countries in the third world teach their children to read - with 1/10th -1/100th the sums spent on funding?

mrz · 23/01/2011 13:14

If schools stopped wasting so much money on expensive decodable books
do you really think it is a waste to provide books that children can read using decoding skills rather than give them "Look & Say" schemes with words they can't possibly read at that point?

midnightexpress · 23/01/2011 21:04

ymeyer: 'we are spending more on Education today then we have ever spent, yet our results are worse then they have ever been'

So, in the past, when our results were better (your words), we managed to learn to read without sticking solely to SP. I'm not sure I follow your argument then.

And 'How do you think our written language came to be? 40+ sounds in our language, only 26 letters in the alphabet - the sounds map to letter/letter clusters: it's called the Alphabetic Code'. Yes, I know, and nearly 200 possible letter/sound correspondences. So it's not that simple, is it?

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 01:14

midnightexpress,

If you want to learn about how written English evolved, the best 'one-stop-shop' is the Children of the Code www.childrenofthecode.org.

A brief potted history - late 14th/early 15th century, the French-speaking King of England instructed his French & Latin speaking court scribes to devise a written language for English (which was not actually one language but a hybrid of different languages) which they did using the Latin Alphabetic Code.

Latin - 26 sounds + 26 letters = written Latin

English - 44 sounds + 26 letters + 70 common spelling rules = written English.

Arguments on how best to teach written English started mid-15th century.

Most common form of teaching written English from 15th to 19th century, direct, explicit instruction in basic code with limited sight word guessing and memorising.

1950's - beginning of scientific research into effective beginning reading instruction.

1960's & 70's - Extreme form of sight word memorising and guessing plus rejection of direct,explicit, systematic teacher-directed instruction named Whole Language becomes fad-du-jour.

Whole Language re-names itself every time it's contents become known and discredited; constructivist, child-centred, discovery, hands-on, multicueing, 3-Searchlights, 4-resources etc.

80's onwards - Reading Recovery, the remedial arm of Whole Language (more of what didn't work in the first place) becomes entrenched in Australia & New Zealand and highly present in USA, Canada & UK.

90's - results of Project Follow Through are published providing conclusive proof that direct, explicit, intensive, systematic teacher-directed instruction is more effective than child-centred strategies.

Results ignored by The Blob.

80's onwards NICHD & others set up multiple scientific longtitudinal studies to examin effective beginning reading instruction.

2000 - meta-analysis The National Reading Report published. Results ignored by The Blob.

Teacher Training

There has never been a time when the teaching and learning of written English has been 'perfect'. Prior to the 50's, the only qualification necessary to teach primary was that the teacher could read themselves and they were still breathing.

50's & 60's saw attempts to improve teaching by creating 1 & 2 year 'teacher training colleges'. The teachers teaching the teachers were from the pool of 'can read themselves and are breathing' experienced teachers. Some very good, some terrible.

70's onwards - attempts to improve teacher training saw the teacher colleges re-created overnight as University Schools and Faculties of Education (Ed Schools) providing 3 & 4 year degrees in 'Education'.

'Perfessors' of Education created from the pool of can read/can breathe existing teachers.

These Ed Schools became closed-shop 'gatekeepers'. No-one allowed into the teaching profession without being accepted into and approved by the Ed Schools.

Late 20th century onwards - Data from USA, UK, Australian & New Zealand Ed Schools informs us that all Ed Schools embrace the 'child-centred' philosophy and provide none to little information about scientific evidence based instruction.

Mid-20th century onwards - Spending on Education skyrocketed with costs of 3-4 year University degrees producing countless teachers with no knowledge of effective instruction resulting in increased failure and under-achievment in students and massive increased spending on remedial instruction for students and additional training for teachers. Lobbying for smaller class sizes and extending compulsory education creates massive increases in teacher numbers. More teachers going through more expensive but misinformed training results in more increases in costs.

Reaction is to spend more on what has been proven not to work while ignoring the evidence of what does work.

You say, "So it's not that simple, is it?" Actually, the only simple thing about effective instruction is that we know what DOESN'T WORK!

Any programme that embraces the 'child-centred' philosophy is less effective than any programme that requires teacher-directed instruction.

Any programme that allows beginning readers to guess and/or memorise is less effective for all children than any programme that teaches synthetic phonics 'first and fast'.

Any programme that prioritises spoken language over written language is going to have a neutral effect on most advantaged children but will have an exponentially larger negative effect on disadvantaged children.

I suggest you read Zig Englemann on how time is the enemy of disadvantaged children.

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 01:32

MickeyMixer,

I'm just a stay-at-home mum with no formal qualifications in education. If I know what you describe as "high-brow educational theories", why is it that so few teachers do?

Why is it when there is so much information available on how to teach reading effectively, so few of our highly trained and experienced teachers have even heard of Project Follow Through and the work of the NICHD?

Why is it that even though the government has mandated that beginning reading programmes utlising evidence-based synthetic phonics be implemented, so few teachers know how to teach it?

Why is it that so many middle-class parents have embraced the need to 'school-proof' their children by teaching them synthetic phonics before they start school to ensure that their children learn to read?

If we cannot rely on our schools and teachers to teach our children beginning reading effectively, and (those of us parents that can) have to do this ourselves at home, then why do we have compulsory education at all?

If it is up to parents to teach their children to read because teachers don't know how, then close all schools and fire all teachers and give the money directly to families and let them get on with the job themselves as best they can.

If we are to continue with compulsory, tax-payer funded education, then surely our society is right to expect that all teachers in all schools know the evidence-based content of effective beginning reading instruction?

allchildrenreading · 24/01/2011 09:52

I'd absolutely agree with ymeyer. When my kids were young and I was a part-time children's book editor, I noticed that the kids in our very communal street with reading problems went to the more trendy, state of the art schools. At first, this was a real puzzle.The more I looked into the subject the more distressed and horrified I was that teachers were not being given the tools of the trade, and that the 'cover-up' was all-pervasive. Us middle class can eventually get the help we need, move house to get to decent schools etc. but there's a 20%+ of children who are damaged for ever and we stand by complacently, blaming kids, feckless parents - anything but the instruction.

Mrz
"do you really think it is a waste to provide books that children can read using decoding skills rather than give them "Look & Say" schemes with words they can't possibly read at that point?"

Appropriate decodable books are vital - I'm passionate about their use and value. What I'm complaining about is the cost - nearly £3 for 96 word practice - with 3/4 of the page filled with coloured illustration., for example. Illustrated books are wonderful for reading to children, sharing etc. but what children really respond to when they are learning to read is text that is appropriate, if possible has some life in it, and which they have the confidence to be able to tackle.
Upping the price by £2 per book is simply a distraction, a waste, and a lost opportunity to spend constrained budgets on providing more fit-for-purpose material or using the savings to help children and their families with severe special needs - or building up a fine library of books which 'all children reading' can be encouraged to read.

MickeyMixer · 24/01/2011 10:30

ymeyer
I AM a qualified primary school teacher. I have studied, as have all other teachers, the devt. of reading teaching in this country and others.

However, I agree that in many schools it is very badly taught. This included my DC's school. I taught latterly in the private sector (until I had my children) and I heard my whole class read to me (not a T.A.) at least three times a week! My DSs (8) are heard read 1-to-1 NEVER at school and my DD (5) in reception has been heard read three times since September! THIS IMHO is the root of the problem - the method is pretty irrelevant - it is the 1-to-1 attention every week that is crucial. I was taught by 'Look and Say' in its pure form and my kids by pure 'Synthetic Phonics'. At home I teach using BOTH!

MickeyMixer · 24/01/2011 10:31

includes!

Malaleuca · 24/01/2011 10:35

I've just assessed a child going into Grade 4. By chance I also taught a classmate of hers when they were aged 5. They had exactly the sort of instruction mentioned by the OP, including, I might add, instructions NOT to sound out the high frequency word lists they were given. And it is a tragedy because this child has been damaged probably for life by the mal-instruction. It makes me very cross, especially as I am fully aware of the long road the child and her family has ahead of them
to remedy the situation.

IndigoBell · 24/01/2011 17:05

Why would they be damaged for life? Why can't they learn SP in Grade 4?

mrz · 24/01/2011 17:10

I'm afraid ymeyer that teacher training colleges were established long before the 50s
certainly they were well established in the 20s. Perhaps you are confusing the need to have a full honours degree with teacher training.

I have to agree that in general universities fail to teach students how to teach reading but like many things in education schools are subject to the fads and fancies of politics of what is in favour at that moment. Stay in teaching for 10 years and everything comes around again ... not the way to establish quality.

Bonsoir · 24/01/2011 17:11

My DD is learning to read in English and French with phonics - different for each language, of course, but pure phonics for both.

It's fabulous, IMO - she is making great progress with both languages.

Bonsoir · 24/01/2011 17:39

I agree that fully decodable books for practising reading taught through phonics are indispensable. However, I have found English phonics decodable books shockingly expensive - I had to buy my own series, since DD is being taught to read in French at her French school. However, I also had to buy her French fully decodable reading book.

To cover the same ground, my English book budget was well over £200 while my French book budget was EUR 22 Shock. The English books are a lot more attractive, but in some ways are a lot less complete than the French...

Mashabell · 24/01/2011 19:12

Learning to read English is quite hard and takes a long time because many spellings have more than one pronunciation (paid ? said, supper ? sugar). See englishspellingproblems.blogspot.com/2009/12/reading-problems.html for all of them.

Children get taught to decode the sensibly spelt words first, but many of the most often used words have tricky spellings. So before long they have to start learning to read the tricky words as well.

I?ll paste in the 95 most often occurring tricky words. U?ll see that some are trickier than others:

Any many animals after all asked called can?t fast last plants said small
want wanted was what water

are have laughed

be he he?s me she we we?re

ever every everyone never there there?s were where eyes key

great head ready bear

find I?ll I?m

live lived river friends

another coming don?t most mother oh once only other work
do into to two who

one come some something gone

school book door good look looked looking looks took
grow know snow window
could couldn?t thought through would you your

pulled put

giant people Mr Mrs

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 21:40

MickeyMixer

"...the method is pretty irrelevant - it is the 1-to-1 attention every week that is crucial."

Reading Recovery (the remedial arm of Whole Language) is taught 1:1 and the evidence informs us that it helps, at best, 1 in 3 of the children who go through RR.

"...I was taught by 'Look and Say'..."

So was I and I turned out to be an avid reader and hopeless speller. I know a child the same age as my son who taught herself to read with no formal instruction at all by the time she was 3 and she is an avid reader and terrific speller. I also know many children who are reading well below their chronological age thanks to Look/Say.

The critical point that we need to take from the evidence is that the most effective form of group instruction that ensures that all the children in the classroom, regardless of their innate ability to 'pick up' written English learn to read is direct, explicit etc teacher-directed instruction in synthetic phonics and fluency.

You may be interested in 'Response to Intervention' (RtI) which is recommended by the Rose Review although another term (3 tiers ?) is used.

Very quickly, RtI requires all children receive effective initial instruction with progress carefully monitored. Any children who start to fall behind are indentified and given more intensive instruction in smaller groups (2nd tier of intervention). Any children still failing to make good progress are given more intervention in even smaller groups with a more experienced teacher.

The difference between RtI and, say, Reading Recovery, is that RtI depends on all children receiving effective instruction in the first place.

Google Response to Intervention to find information.

Also, way back somewhere on this thread, someone said that the word (from memory) 'though' was not decodable. The programme that I am most familiar with, Spalding, teaches 75 'phonograms' starting with the most 'transparent' and finishing with the most 'diificult'; the six sounds of 'ough'.

though
through
rough
cough
thought
drought

In a classroom setting of 5 year olds, almost all them will learn the 75 phonograms in 30-40 hours of instruction - usually 20 minutes per day, every day for the first 2 terms of the first year of formal schooling.

DebiTheScot · 24/01/2011 22:02

haven't read all the education debate but was just going to say-
my ds is in yrR and was memorising the same books after reading them once. I think it does help them to learn the word as after all we don't read the individual letters of a word.
He's now jumped onto stage 4 and we can now see what he can actually read as the books are far too long to memorise. Some words he sounds out but there are others he reads from recognising the whole word. Wallpaper appeared several times in today's book and after the 1st time where he worked it out from the picture he then read it too quickly to be sounding it out.

And I didn't do phonics and I can read perfectly well so it can't be the only way a child can learn to read well.

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 22:06

Anyone who is interested in more information about Look/Say should read 'Why Johnny Can't Read' by Rudolph Fleisch.

Or, only a click away, is;

The Triumph of Look-Say
Dumbing-down reading instruction

By Diane Ravitch

Let?s Kill Dick & Jane
How the Open Court Publishing Company Fought the Culture of American Education
By Harold Henderson

As reviewed by Diane Ravitch

"This book tells the story of Blouke Carus?s heroic but ultimately unsuccessful attempt to reform American education. Carus founded the Open Court Publishing Company in 1962 with two aims that did not seem to be at all contradictory: first, to teach children to read, and second, to do so while introducing them to classic children?s literature.

... The dominant reading philosophy was the whole-word (?look-say?) method, enshrined in the simple-minded Dick and Jane?style reading books, which taught children to memorize the shape of words through repetition and ignored phonics altogether. That was the mountain that Carus planned to climb..."

educationnext.org/the-triumph-of-looksay/

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 22:17

DebiTheScot

You are quite right, phonics is not the only way to teach/learn beginning reading. Many children are able to develop large vocabularies of sight-memorised whole words.

There are two problems with memorising whole words and guessing meaning from context. Firstly, there comes a point, usually around Year 4, where the student's ability to memorise whole words is overwhelmed by the volume of new words that enter their 'written world'.

Secondly, the evidence informs us that memorising whole words and decoding and encoding ('sounding out' for reading and spelling) are competing NOT complementary strategies. Most children will memorise whole words because, initially, it is easier. Once the habit is entrenched, it is harder to break.

I highly recommend you read Louisa Moats, "Whole Language Lives On; The Illusion of Balanced Reading Instruction" which I linked earlier on this thread. This paper explains in a very easy to understand way why memorising whole words is not in your child's ultimate best interests.

ymeyer · 24/01/2011 22:22

Mashabell,

I have read posts from you on other occassions and, since, much of what you say about spelling is contradictory to what I have read in the research papers, (see National Reading Panel, National Inquiry into the Teaching of Literacy, Rose etc) I would like to know if there is any scientific, evidence-based research that supports your point of view?

DebiTheScot · 24/01/2011 22:30

ymeyer I meant to add that he does do phonics at school as well and so I think with both techniques he should be ok. I will have a read of that paper too though. (added a t to though by mistake there and was struck again (happens often when reading with ds) by how silly our language can be!)

Another thing I wonder about is my accent affecting the way ds says words. My husband and I are Scottish but we live in England and I'm sure at some point ds will pronounce a word 'wrong' at school because we've helped him with the word at home!

DebiTheScot · 24/01/2011 22:34

oh, doh, have just read your 2nd point again about memorising and sounding out not going together!
I don't encourage him to memorise a word, sometimes he just does. And if he comes across a word- like the wallpaper example earlier- that he could read but then can't, I get him to sound it out again as well as showing him where it appeared on other pages. MAybe I shouldn't do the showing bit.

MickeyMixer · 24/01/2011 22:34

ymeyer - you have failed to address my point that 1-to-1 time reading with the teacher is the major failing at the moment in our primary schools. The successes or failures of each method are irrelevant if reading is being 'taught' as a whole class activity to 30 pupils and not as an individual skill.

Feenie · 25/01/2011 07:54

That's a ridiculous argument - most things are 'taught' to a class or a group. You might just as well refuse to discuss the teaching method of anything at all in schools, because it's not taught one to one. Let's abandon schools altogether as a completely unworkable idea and just go for home schooling then. Hmm

We know one to one usually benefits everything, Mickeymixer - that's why the children who read regularly at home, or who practise tables regularly generally do better. It's why the One-to-One tuition programme happens - we all know that 10 hours of individual time will work wonders.

But to use this as an argument to ignore the chosen method of instruction, and the wealth of evidence to support it, is frankly ludicrous.

ymeyer · 25/01/2011 07:56

MickeyMixer

Read my post again and you will see that I have addressed your point and more.

1:1 is not critical in teaching beginning reading.

DebiTheScot,

There are others who can give you better advice on details like accents. From memory, I think this has been discussed at various times on the Reading Reform Foundation discussion forum. They have a 'search' facility so you might be able to find these old discussions easily.

Us parents have to work out how best to teach our children by the 'suck it and see' method. It is important to keep in mind that many children become good readers and spellers even when the instruction they receive is less than perfect. Read the 'Whole Language Lives On' paper because that explains the issue of whole words vs decoding very clearly. From there you will be able to work out for yourself what direction to take when helping you child with reading.