Teachers - what is your view of this

[northernterritory]

I am looking for a teacher's view of this. I am a Governor at my DD's school. I have my doubts about some of their practices. The teachers don't seem to work much directly with te kids. Big classes etc. But they ave special help at the top and special help at the bottom. The 'average' group seems to be left to it until they slip through the net at occasional assessments.

They have just assessed the kids to find out who the 'bottom group' is.

This 'bottom group' will now go on an hour a day intensive literacy course for the next 16 weeks with a TA to 'get them up to scratch' for the time the school take their 'optional' external marked SATS in May - all Juniors take them.

Is this an effective way of teaching? Is it par for the course to see, every so often, who's falling beind and then apply a bit of resources to catch them up for SATs time.

They seemed to do exactly the same every year.

I'd seriously like your opinion!

On TAs - they were shown by the Rose Report to have had a negative overall effect on learning in the primary classroom. This was owing to their being less well educated themselves in comparison with the teachers.

In my classroom for example I am the teacher, I have six A levels, two university degrees and my teaching post graduate certificate. The TA, is lovely and very helpful to me and the kids, but has only two CSEs and her TA qualification gained at the age of 40 after 22 years as a cleaner. She simply doesn't have the intellectual capacity I do and it shows in the classroom everyday.

to give kids to the TA's sole charge is irresponsible unless you are very sure of their abilities.

There - I've said it!

That's 'To' with a capital letter of course!

Thank you again. Your insights have been very helpful and provided me with lots of questions.

You are right, I have been deeply concerned about such issues, which partly explains why I became a Governor.

To be clear, these are not children at level 1 or who can't read and write. One of them is the son of a friend. He is not quite at average grades but he is not 'failing'.

The TAs are used for this kind of 'mopping up' exercise. However, as I understand it, only the G&T get teacher time.

My worry is also for the majority of the class stuck in the so-called 'average' range who don't get to work directly with anyone unless they start to fail.

Yet, the 'data' is good so Ofsted will be happy and the SATs are good so the school is oversubscribed. My one meeting with the FGB to date confirmed the complete domination of the head and a complete unquestioning attitide on the part of everyone else.

And next on the agenda is becoming an Academy!

I would be absolutely appalled if our head suggested only G&T got taught by teachers fortunately he believes all children have a right quality first teaching.
We also have a 2C policy of additional support for those children who enter Y3 but not at the expense of missing lessons.

I can't imagine the teachers are very happy about only working with the G&T children.

I don't know how happy the teachers are but they all seem to operate in the same way. My experience is, and my understanding from TAs and teachers, that TAs alone work with those considered to be in the 'lower ability' sets.

I do worry that this is in fact how the delegated SEN budget is actually being used - i.e. catch up literacy/numeracy groups - as tere seems no money left for anything else. For example, a teacher runs a social skills group for children with ASD and general social skills issues and she wanted a particular and well-known CD package that costs about £40. She was told there is no money, yet this is all the help that some of tthese children get at SA+.

However, they are not in need of 'catch up literacy' etc

I'm with you MickeyMixer on the comments about TAs. They aren't teachers, and I don't think it's fair on them either to be expected to take sole teaching responsibilities on their wages! It's not fair on anyone involved, not to mention completely inappropriate. (I have a pet hate of incorrect use of apostrophes, and have often wondered if it is something on the increase since TAs have had more teaching responsibilities.)

I think it's a teacher's responbility and they should be directly delivering and overseeing the entire process, with TAs assisting, as their title suggests. The same goes for assessment processes - I have seen quite a bit of reporting where the TAs are writing the lot, with the teachers signing it off, having barely read it. It's appalling.

If the school had smaller class sizes, hardly any of these issues would come up. It's not a school, it's a sausage factory.

responsibility, even

I think this is a problem. There are 35 in a class at junior school level which is pretty unworkable.

WHAT??!! I'm a bit out of touch these days (full-time parenting). Is this actually legal? If it is, it shouldn't be.

There are 30 children in my sons class. They are assessed throughout the school term and are put into ability groups within the class.

Those that require extra help in a particular subject are put into Intervention groups that are specific in nature. For example my son excels at reading but has poor handwriting and so he is in a group for that.

These groups take place during the daily assembly.

Of course it isn't illegal there is no limit on KS2 class sizes (there never has been) and the last government were talking about classes of up to 90

Hopefully not daily, IAP, otherwise this is pretty excluding. And who makes sure they know what's been disseminated in assembly? Hopefully they don't miss too much, but assembly is all part of the curriculum, too. Especially from a speaking and listening point of view, which is also a vital part of language skills development. (I find the speaking and listening component of the UK Nat. Curric. to be wanting, unfortunately. We have too many children who lack the confidence in speaking, imho, which lays vital foundations for their abilities to read and write.)

mrz, utterly, utterly horrifying. Have only played with the idea of home ed until now.

Its different groups on different days

eg

Monday - writing group

Tuesday - reading group

Wednesday - Maths group

Thursday - no group

Friday - no group as good works assembly

I have to admit I am tempted at times by HE! If this is an outstanding school, with a Head who is a National Leader of Education, with glowing comments by Ofsted about how they carefully chart cildren's progress, what hope is there?

Such effusive praise and a good SATs record means that parents flock here which further reinforces practices.

The Head has clearly mastered the stats and SATS game. I think, sadly, for some parents, that's enough.

Yes, look at what OFSTED deem to be important. How can they possibly know so much about a school after such fleeting visits? To them, it's all about numbers and stats. Jumping through hoops, rather than happiness, high self esteem, great working relationships, etc. And schools have cottoned onto that through fear - after all, bad OFSTEDs mean parents vote with their feet. Which means even less money for the school. Totally with you, northernterritory. It's grim.

mickey I am a ta and apart from the pgce I have similar qualifications to you, plus experience in industry
don't write us all off!
the 'all for ofsted' approach worries me a lot, too

blackcoffee, the school you work in has obviously got itself a bargain. Your qualifications are not a prerequisite for all assistants, however, so there's no way to safely give TAs more responsibility.

The kids you work with are lucky too!

Blackcoffee -
I wouldn't for a moment write off all TAs - I worked as one myself for six weeks!!

thanks! I am hoping to do gtp next year if I am lucky enough to get a place. I started ta'ing after a traumatic separation and move to being lone p and found out completely by accident that I love it.
Maybe the official requirements for a ta position are not too high but in reality, at least in my lea, jobs are fought over and most taken on now are either v experienced or quite well educated.
the pay is still pretty rubbish though ...

Most of the TA staff at our school (including myself) are graduates-two are ex-teachers in fact. I have A level maths so believe I am more than able to take a group of 10 year olds out of the classroom for 30 minutes to work on grid multiplication. If the teacher didn't think I was competent I don't expect they would be daft enough to ask me to do it!

missmehalia - am equally shocked that you would assume all TAs are automatically inferior to teachers - my dd curently has a v v bright, experienced TA paired with a young, pleasant but probably rather less intelligent and barely experienced teacher. They work well together.

Just because someone isn't a trained teacher doesn't mean they aren't educated or intelligent, nor that their years of experience in the classroom count for nothing.

Did not automatically assume anything, actually, granted. As I've said earlier, am a primary teacher and as such have worked with TAs who were all lovely, but whose literacy skills were a mixed bag.

Schools and the pupils get a huge bonus when they get a TA who has a degree qualification or some kind of equivalent. Not all TAs will have that. Surely that's obvious? It's inappropriate for TAs to be given responsibility they're not paid enough for, and not all TAs have the requisite qualifications or experience either.

Nowhere did I say that all TAs lack education, experience or intelligence, granted, I'd say you may have a chip on your shoulder about this.

Schools that are good at hiring get brilliant TAs. It's only schools with rubbish HTs that hire rubbish TAs.

There are loads of very qualified people who want the job of TA if the school doesn't treat TAs like they are inferior beings.

Same goes for Dinner Ladies....