school appeal

[angryma]

I'd like to thank all the mums that helped me with my childrens school appeal. The ombudsman upheld my complaint and thanks to you lot I've got another chance at an appeal!!
Now what do I do?

Well done! I would be interested to know the reasons why the upheld your complaint.

If I remember correctly, this is the case where the school has a ridiculously high PAN. Am I also correct in thinking that there was more than one child involved? Are you appealing again for all your children or just one?

Ignoring specifics, this appeal will be in front of a new panel. They will not know that it is a second appeal (although they may be able to work it out). You do not have to stick to the case you presented in the first appeal. You can submit a completely new case. If you are sticking to the same case you don't need to do anything - the clerk to the panel will send out the case you used last time. If you want to submit a new case you need to prepare your written submission and send it in.

Good luck.

AngryMa,

I would write to the LA Admission team and say that now the Ombudsman has ordered a rehearing you want to take up this option at the earliest possible time. Normally the LA will arrange the hearing but being positive the LA may just decide that it is not worth the hassle of going to appeal again if they think they will loose and give you a place. That obviously depends on how damning the Ombudsmans report was.
I think that the other thing that needs to be said is that you should not assume that because the ombudsman upheld the complaint that a new appeal panel will find in your favour. You will still have to fight like hell for a place if the LA go for a second hearing.

It is a new panel but they will almost for sure realise that this is a rehearing but that is not a problem. Your bigger problem is to try and second guess how the admission authority may change their submission given how the first appeal went. AS PRH says you need to decide whether you need to review your submission.

Hi prh47bridge and admission,
I can't remember which one of you pointed out the fact that all three childrens appeal was heard as one, but that was what secured the second appeal. The Ombudsman sent the LA an email yesterday morning and by the evening the LA admitted defeat!!
They have ordered the LA to hold a second appeal asap.
Since the original appeal, one child has been admitted to the school , and so the appeal is for the 2 other children.
I am truly grateful for your help. I am hopeful that it will be a success but what point's could I make that will strengthen my case??

You will need to alter your appeal document to show there is a sibling there in the school.

There is half a temptation under these circumstances to actually tell the panel that this is a second appeal because the original panel made decisions that were about all three siblings together and not as individual cases. The reason I say this is that the panel could just take the view that you pushed one of your kids into the school so that the other two would get in under appeal. Under those circumstances they could just say no. But if you explain that you wanted all three to go to the same school but the three appeals were not done separately the panel took a view on admitting all three at once this will stop the panel from assuming you are trying to level the three into the school.

I would definitely email the LA admission office and say that one sibling has already been accepted and given the Ombudsman's ruling you want to go to appeal now as the other two want to be in the same school. The LA must know they have a weak case because one sibling has already been accepted into the school, unless the year groups are very much over the PAN.

I've been back to your previous thread and refreshed my memory. That thread suggests that it is probably your Y4 child that has been admitted. Is that correct?

Your biggest problem is that this school has a PAN of 35 but a capacity of only 204. That PAN is far too high compared to the capacity. The PAN should be 30. My quick thoughts for stage 1...

Make sure the panel are clear that there are 4 classes in infants and therefore this is not an infant class size case. Their current class arrangement allows them to have up to 40 children in each year in infants before they hit infant class size limits.

Point out that if every year is full to PAN the school will have 245 pupils, well over the official capacity of 204. If enough pupils apply to fill each year the school will have to go to that number. Therefore the school and LA have already accepted that the school can cope with 245 children regardless of the fact that this is well over the official capacity. It only has 226 at the moment (assuming your child is the only one admitted since your appeal) and is therefore well under the level it would be at if it was full to PAN.

The bulk of the LA's case last time round was pretty standard. Pointing to the Ofsted report which doesn't contain any suggestion of overcrowding as you did last time may be a good move. If you want to do that again it would be a good idea to submit a copy of this report as part of your evidence so that the panel members can read it before the hearing.

None of this conclusively proves that the school can take your children. What I would be trying to do here is move the panel away from thinking this school is ridiculously overcrowded because of the high PAN and instead get them thinking that the high PAN means the school must be able to cope with more pupils, otherwise why was it set so high.

It is also worth pointing out to the panel that the school currently has 37 in Y1 and is coping with this, so admitting your child to Y2 (which only has 35 at the moment) shouldn't cause any problems.

The other point to make, of course, is that you need to give reasons why your children need to go to this school. The fact they have a sibling there already is a good start but anything else you can come up with that suggests they need to be at this school will help to bolster your case. Concentrate on things like after school clubs and other facilities this school has which the allocated school does not.

There are no guarantees but, given that Y2 only has 35 children (assuming nothing has changed) I think you have a reasonable chance of winning that case. The appeal for your Y1 child may be more difficult to win because that year is already 2 over PAN. It is a shame there isn't a year with 38 children in it already! However, being optimistic the panel may take the view that they have to admit your Y2 child and that having two children there already means they ought to admit your Y1 child as well.

Good luck!

A great BIG THANKYOU is in order. The advice that I have been given on this forum is as usual invaluable.
Admission, you read my mind I was going to ask if I should tell the panel that this is a second appeal, thanks.
Also prh47bridge, the part about the 4 infant classes I don't understand.I thought the infant class size limit was 35 (in our case).
Also the sizes of the classroom was another issue, I'm sure this will come up again, how could I argue that?
THANKS

The figure of 35 you quote is the PAN, i.e. the number of children they will admit each year. It is the number in the year, NOT the number in a class. Under infant class size regulations there can be no more than 30 children in an infants class with a single teacher. According to the LA's case at the first appeal this school has a Reception class, a Reception/Y1 class, a Y1/Y2 class and a Y2 class. That's 4 classes in total. As each class can have up to 30 children, that means they can have a total of 120 children in infants. There are 3 years in infants so that is 40 children in each year.

The panel should understand that this is not an infant class size case but the notes you posted from the first appeal suggest that they may have been confused. Hopefully a new panel will get it right. I would simply ask the LA's representative to confirm that admitting your children will not cause the school to breach infant class size regulations. As long as the LA's representative confirms that there should be no need to go into detail.

The classroom sizes are a problem. The two small classrooms used in infants are already overcrowded. However, the larger ones both have space for additional pupils which is worth pointing out, so there is space for your Y2 child without making a classroom overcrowded (another reason why the case for your Y2 child is stronger than for your Y1 child). On the other hand the junior classrooms are definitely going to be overcrowded in future - indeed, some of them already are. I can't think of a direct way of attacking this but, the PAN suggests they are either deliberately overcrowding this school or there is something we are missing. That's why I would push at the fact that the PAN is too high for the capacity. That hints to the panel that the school can cope with more pupils than its official capacity. Of course, I can't guarantee that the panel will take the hint.

Just to let you know the LA called and have set a date for the appeal, in 2 weeks. Yikes.
Prh47bridge, you've made some really good points. Should I write these points down in a letter or just make notes for myself so I can prompt myself at the appeal?

You can do whatever you feel comfortable with really. If it were me, I would make a written submission which covered my case as to why the children should be admitted and why their education will suffer if they aren't. I could mention some of the points I've mentioned above in that but I probably wouldn't - no point in alerting the LA to the line of questioning I intend to take. If I was going to refer to the Ofsted report I would include a copy of that with my submission. Any documentary evidence you want to use such as the Ofsted report must be sent in well before the appeal. I would then think about what questions I would ask the LA's representative to try and highlight the weaknesses in their case. So, for example, I would start by asking them to confirm that admitting your children will not cause the school to breach infant class size regulations. I might then ask them to confirm that the school will have 245 pupils if every year is full to PAN and that this is well over the official capacity of 209. I am not saying those are necessarily the correct first two questions - that's just my immediate thoughts. There are probably more questions to ask and to a degree you need to go with the flow but having a clear plan of attack helps. Finally I would make some notes to remind me what I wanted to say when I was asked to speak, remembering that I will be asked sum up my case at the end so I need to think about what I want to say then as well.

I would be tempted to contact the LA now and ask them why the PAN is 35 when the capacity is only 209. Depending on the answer you got it may be worth asking that question during the appeal, but I certainly wouldn't ask it unless I knew what the answer was. I am a great believer in only asking questions to which you know the answer. That isn't always achievable, of course, but it is a good starting point.