Support and advice needed, please: son miserable at school

[ToffeeChristmascake]

Forgive the long back story here, but it is necessary. I feel really down about this today and could do with some MN wisdom.

My son (11 and in his last year at primary) is dyslexic and has problems with anxiety/OCD. We have had a lot of problems with school over the years. He had a very difficult time in his early years and was quite disruptive. Once he was diagnosed as dyslexic (at 6), he received the extra help and understanding he needed and his disruptive behaviour stopped. However, the anxiety that manifested itself in disruptive behaviour now turned into OCD behaviour - rituals such as hand washing, checking things, shutting the bedroom door a set number of times, etc. We have been to CAMHS more than once to help him.

Two years' ago, his anxieties became so great that he became hysterical every morning before school. He was unable to face going into class, so spent half days in the school office and came home in the afternoons. We were seeing CAMHS at the time for help with his anxieties, so we were given a lot of support in helping him to overcome his fears. He was given his own teaching assistant - a wonderful, intuitive woman, who was a great support for him through this time. He is a brave boy and he managed to overcome his fears and get back to school full time and without a TA.

The next year went well. However, things have deteriorated since his return to school in September. He feels that he does not fit in with his classmates, he finds playtime stressful, he finds lessons either boring or stressful. He seems to worry all the time.

He feels sick a lot; he has stomach aches a lot; he complains of having nightmares about going back to school; his hands are dry from all the hand washing; he spends large parts of the day completing rituals to make himself feel safe.

I keep an eye on him constantly to see how he is, as he does not always want to talk about it. I have noticed all that was going on, but I hoped that two weeks' relaxation at Christmas might restore him.

Today, he told me how unhappy he was and asked me, not for the first time, to home educate him until he went to secondary. I pointed out that this might make the transition to secondary school much harder for him. In fact, I would do it like a shot if I thought it was the right thing to do. I hated forcing him go to school when he was so unhappy about it two years ago, but I did not want him to become school phobic. He does say now that he is no longer scared of school - he is simply miserable.

I'm planning to go in and discuss this with the headmistress when term starts, but, in the meantime, any advice and support would be much appreciated.

Toffee- I think hypnotherapy in the meantime sounds an excellent idea... BTW the 'human givens' approach was suggested by our GP so has professional stamp of approval...
I'm not sure that Home edding until July wouldn't polarise your son's idea of himself and others. Does your school do 'emotional literacy' groups? Is there something that your DS is good at where he could run a club for other children in the school in the lower years? We sometimes use this to build DCs self-esteem and also get them out of the playgound issues for at least one lunchtime a week. Eg he could set up a lego club for Year 3, a board games club, run tri-golf/multiskills. Hope this helps! x

Hello, OM. Am all for the 'human givens' approach, but thought hypnotherapy might help him to relax. He is tense all the time. I get exhausted just watching him as he goes through all his rituals.

The school has just appointed two wonderful TAs to run 'emotional literacy' groups and deal with difficult behaviour in school. They are trying to set up a group with my son's year right now and they are aware of my son's issues.

I think it would be really helpful for my son if he had choices at playtime, as it is all football at the moment, which causes him all sorts of problems. I like your idea of him running a club for younger children. I can see how this could build self-esteem. I might mention the idea to the TAs. Thank you.

Hypnotherapy can be used by Human Givens Practitioners as part of their 'tool kit' iyswim so it would tie in well with the approach and I think would be great for your DS! Have a nice relaxing weekend!x

OM - I didn't know that. That really would be a wonderful combination. Did I tell you that I found a practitioner locally who specialises in children? I'm going to ask the GP for his advice, but I am keen on getting DS some help soon, rather than waiting for the inevitable 8-week period with CAMHS again.

SDeuchars - Thank you for your post. I appreciate that my son's fear of school is not irrational, considering his dyslexia and sensitivity. It was his specific fear of vomiting that was irrational. Part of me longs to whisk him out of school and home educate him, particularly when I see how much happier he has been over the last few days at home. However, I have a high regard for this school and its staff and I really do feel they have my son's best interests at heart.

DS is having a good, relaxing weekend. Am hoping he will feel able to face school again on Monday, by which time the boys who were unkind will have been dealt with and the teacher will understand his situation and be keeping a close eye on him.

DS back at school and doing OK so far. Had a good meeting with his teacher. Also took him to the dr today, who is referring him back to CAMHS and also giving us the number of a private psychologist.

OM - dr knew of 'human givens' approach, but couldn't recommend anyone locally.

The head has spoken to the boys who were picking on my son and they haven't bothered him since. In fact, one of them - looking rather shame faced - came up to us this afternoon and asked if my son would like to come round and play one day soon. (DS is not keen, obviously!).

I have noticed a definite lightening of DS's mood in the last couple of days. He was on very good form today. He even wanted to do his homework this evening, which took me by surprise. We had a lot of time to chat on the way to and from the doctor's this morning and spent a long time together this evening, just having fun together. I hope that the break from school last week, coupled with the sense that people are listening to him and doing their best to help him, is having a restorative effect on him. Certainly, it must have helped that the boys at school have stopped being mean to him and that one of them has even tried to be friendly again.

Feeling much more positive now!

toffee have popped over here from FLY thread - sounds like you've been through a lot.
I have a lot of thoughts running through my head...will try to formulate over night and come back to thread tomorrow (as have just poured glass of wine

Just wondering if your DS had full assessment initially with CAMHS .... just wondering about possible Aspergers traits which are often missed but if not picked up can lead to anxieties etc later on.
I work as a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist and see a lot of teeneagers where possible diagnosies have been missed...
Hoping this doesnt add to your stress btw - just something to consider
I also have a DD3 with Aspergers...she is only 6 , but already I can see school is going to be a lifelong struggle for her
I would try maybe posting on the Special Needs board (if you havent already) as the folks on there are very wise and full of loads of good suggestions for dealing with difficult school situations...
Also I have shared some of my Hom Ed experience with you on FLY thread...but just to add my DS1 went from home ed into Y6 which he hated...but then to secondary school - which he loves and is now doing well in Y8
I would also stress though that early diuscussion with secondary school are imperative as is being prepared to fight for the support your ds will need at secondary school...
Will come back to this thread tomorrow when I can think straight...have wine and pizza now calling

diagnoses even LOL

Thanks for your message, OFM. Well spotted re the Asperger's! I didn't mention it in my OP because I was trying to summarise. In fact, my son has been assessed for Asperger's twice. We weren't convinced by the first assessment, so requested a second. The thinking was that, although he shows traits typically found in AS children, these were not severe enough to warrant a diagnosis, plus he showed traits, such as empathy and imagination, which wouldn't typically be found in an AS child. We did the Baron-Cohen questionnaire with him a couple of years ago (designed to indicate possible autism) and he scored 32, which indicated a high probability of AS. I think he is simply further along that continuum than most children, but not diagnosable.

Saw the doctor about DS's stress yesterday and we told him about the home-education idea. He was very sympathetic about it. He and DS had a very good discussion about it and the doctor suggested that DS join a club so that he maintain at least one group activity during his time being home educated. DS was very articulate about why he wants to be home educated and, very sweetly, insisted that I would be an excellent teacher.

Any more ideas from you will be gratefully received - in particular, ideas about how to rebuild his confidence. His self-esteem is at all time low. He has suffered so many disappointments with his peers and has now withdrawn entirely from any social life. I really feel badly for him over this and want him to learn to trust people again.

Just a quick update for anyone who reads the above and doesn't know the latest: DS is utterly miserable at school again, in spite of everything the school has tried to do to help him. On Thursday, we sat up late into the evening, with him telling me everything that was going on. He feels excluded from social activities at school and said he spent the first playtime walking round the playground on his own, then hiding in the loo, trying to summon up the courage to go back to class. He finds the lessons very, very dull, can't concentrate when it's noisy and is convinced that he will learn more at home. As he always does much better with one-to-one help, this is quite probably correct.

I didn't take him into school on Friday because I wasn't prepared to let him suffer anymore. I feel that we have tried everything to make school work, but he is still miserable. He no longer contributes socially because he has lost all his confidence - as a result, he is often left out of group activities at playtime.

We are seriously considering taking him out of school now so that he can be home educated. On Monday, I am meeting with a home-educating family who withdrew their daughter from school for very similar reasons. It has been a great success and the girl's confidence has blossomed.

It all feels scary, but also quite exciting. DS is already planning his very own topic book and amazed me by saying that he wanted to study 'fish and sea creatures'. I would never in a million years have known that he wanted to study anything like that, but he said he just hadn't been given the chance before.

I have told him that we will decide for sure by half term, although I don't really see what alternative we have now.

Oh, and we have another appointment with CAMHS coming up next week. I have a feeling they won't approve of us taking him out of school, but we shall see.

Hi toffee have been thinking about this some more...
It can be hard Re diagnosing Aspergers... especially in the slightly older child.It can be somewhat subjective too unfortunately. I have seen kids that have been told by one DR that they don't have a diagnosis, only then to be told by different Dr that they do have diagnosis...not helpful really. And there are also a LOT of children that hover on the edge...in that they have lots of traits but not quite enough for a diagnosis...

I am wondering about a few things....
who do you see at CAMHS? (not names...but OT/psychologist/Dr etc..)
What interventions have they tried? CBT? Group work? slef esteem work?etc...
Are you happy with the input you have had from CAMHS? (am guessing not)
what extra support does your DS receive at school for either his dyslexia/or anxiety?
Is he on School Action/School Action plus/has a statement?
what is causing your DS the most stress - the academic side of school or the friendship issues or are they equally stressful?
What is the secondary school you have chosen like?? Have you had any discussions with them so far about your DS needs?

I am thinking that HE may be a good idea. At this point it sounds as if there may be little to be gained by keeping going with primary school as it sounds as if little will change there now in next 2 terms. HE could give your DS a much needed break and would enable you to boost his confidence a bit.It would be a good idea to join local Home Ed group if possible so your DS can still socialise a bit, hopefully with you there this can be less stressful for him. Also in my experience Home Ed families are very diverse and extremely welcoming. There may be others who have had similar experiences to your DS and can empathise with him/you too. Meeting with family you have lined up sounds a wonderful idea - hope that goes well.
I do think you need to give some thought to how you will prepare your DS for return to school at secondary level. Although lots of children go back into school after Home ed (mine included!) perfectly successfully it is worth considering that when the time comes your DS may experience some anxiety at returning to a setting that he associates with stress and negative experiences. Hopefully he will be find it easier, being a different school and may well see it as an exciting fresh start, but it is worth considering how you would handle it if he became anxious on his return.

WRT CAMHS and their view of Home Ed - you may find they try to tell you that taking him out of school is a bad idea, (avoiding triggers for anxiety as you mentioned before) whilst I would agree that in cases of school phobia we always try to get the child back into school ASAP as the more time out of school the harder it is to go back...in this case I think it is more complicated and slightly different to that.
Sometimes CAMHS teams can get a bit freaked out by anything "out of the ordinary" and may not be that knowledgable about Home Ed. However remember to stand your ground. How your son is educated is not really their concern.
I would want to be asking them though what else they were going to offer him for his anxiety and OCD symptoms (if these are still a problem) as it sounds as if they haven't really got these fully under control...

It sounds to me as if one of the key issues for your DS is that he has not received the support he needs at school, and this is something you will need to try and sort out before he starts Secondary School. Not an easy process , but worth it in the end! You may want to consider applying for a Statement for him if he doesnt already have one...sounds scarey, and is a V tedious process but would mean his needs would be properly identified and then the school would be legally obliged to provide the support listed on his statement....I really would post on The Special Needs - Children board on here as I think you'd get a lot of good advice...

In terms of boosting his confidence/self esteem there are lots of options. Home Educating could provide you lots of opportunities to let him "succeed" Letting him learn about what he is interested in will help him discover learning as something enjoyable rather than stressful. Oppportunities for supported social interactions with other Home Ed kids will help him gain some confidence in his skills at friendships.
Where I work we run social skills groups as well as self esteem groups for the kids/teenagers... I wonder if your CAMHS offer anything like this??
If not, there are lots of books/programs I could recomend ...will go look out a few titles that may be good...

will think som emore and pop back later....

also just re-reading your post you say your DS has anxiety but just wondering if he could possibly be depressed....low mood, withdrawing socially,low self esteem etc can all be part of depression too.Although not as common as in adults children and teenagers can develop depression too. perhaps worth asking your CAMHS worker about? what is is eating and sleeping like? if they felt he may depressed they may be able to offer other therapies which might help...

glad GP was sympathetic BTW...
must go now as meant to be FLYing LOL

Wow, OFM, I wish we were seeing you for support! Thank you so much for thinking about us and for all your suggestions.

In answer to your questions:

Who have we seen at CAMHS? Two clinical psychologists (who assessed him for Asperger's) and a clinical nurse specialist. I have to say that my son has never had a 'proper' assessment for Asperger's - both were quite informal. I have a friend at the National Autism Society who pointed out that a proper diagnosis would be much more detailed. One of the reasons we asked for a second assessment was that the first psychologist said, as soon as my son came into the room, "Well, I can see just by looking at him that he doesn't have Asperger's" . She didn't really seem to have a good knowledge of Asperger's.

However, I have to say that I don't think he has Asperger's myself anymore, although for a long time I did. I could be wrong though.

What interventions have they tried? CBT.

Group work? self esteem work? Nope.

Are you happy with the input you have had from CAMHS? Well, the CBT worked well to get him back into school. However, Toby's problems come and go (he manages for a while, then has a crisis), and when he is going through a 'good' phase everyone thinks that he's better - whereas we know that it is simply a welcome break before the next challenge.

What extra support does your DS receive at school for either his dyslexia/or anxiety? None. His reading and spelling are ahead of his age group, so they are not worried about him academically. On the other hand, there are lots of simple things that he doesn't know / understand, such as the months of the year (!) and what time it is. Re: anxiety - no formal support, although the school are well aware of his issues and have tried to help him by giving him a timetable of activities for each week and allowing him to work alone when possible.

Is he on School Action/School Action plus/has a statement? No. He was on School Action Plus, but came off it when he was last dismissed by CAMHS - I suppose he will be on it again though now we are seeing them. I don't know that he would get a statement.

what is causing your DS the most stress - the academic side of school or the friendship issues or are they equally stressful? Probably the friendship issues, but it's a close run thing as he is so bored in lessons that that is causing him stress too.

What is the secondary school you have chosen like? Have you had any discussions with them so far about your DS needs? The secondary school is huge, which is not ideal, I know. I have spoken once to the head of the special needs' unit there when I was thinking, recently, of getting DS re-tested for dyslexia to see what support he might need at secondary. I know I'll need to talk to them soon, particularly if I withdraw my son from school.

Got to go out, but will write more later. Thank you so much for thinking of me.

OK. Back from dropping playmate back at his mum's house and DC are occupied for the moment, so I'm free for a bit.

Thanks for pointing out the positive things about home ed for DS. That is really encouraging. I know that the school are worried that it will isolate DS even further, but at the moment I just want him to have some relief from the stress he is under. We can work on social stuff later, although, of course, I will maintain the basics (outings with a close friend, for instance).

I wonder if I could work with CAMHS and the secondary school together to provide my DS with extra support settling into secondary school. He will certainly need it, as I know that secondary school is going to bring a new set of challenges.

Re: statement. The school SENCO would not even refer my DS to the school psychologist because he came so far down on her list of priorities. The trouble is, as I said before, that when his issues have been addressed and he seems OK everyone thinks all his problems have been sorted out. He usually puts on a fairly good 'school persona', which fools everyone. His behaviour is good at school these days and he is performing OK academically, so they have had no reason, recently at least, to be concerned about him. I have no idea if I would get a statement for him after this latest crisis.

I will post on the Special Needs board - thanks for that suggestion - and also, when I meet with CAMHS next week, I will ask them what support they can offer for boosting his self-esteem, as well as helping him cope with anxiety. You are right about possible depression as well. We have wondered about that. He finds sleeping difficult and eating is a problem for him too - but these have been ongoing problems for some time, not just recently.

I hope that, if we do go down the home education route, we can find ways to nurture him and restore his self esteem, because he is so low now that it is painful to see. Someone on the home ed board referred to 'the light' in her child's eyes that switched back on when she started home education and that is what I want to see in my son's eyes, because there is no light now .

Oh toffee I really feel for you, it must be so heartbreaking seeing your DS so sad

BUT don't give up hope - I do think there is lots to be done that could help your DS

WRT to Aspergers diagnosis - it is so unfortunate that it is such a lottery from place to place how it is diagnosed.
When my DD was diagnosed she was seen for a 2 day assessment. She saw a clinical psychologist - who took some history and then did psychometric testing, a consultant developmental Paediatrician - who took a detailed history and also did basic physical examination, an OT who did various motor skills assessments, an optician for eye test and also had a hearing test. Sometimes as well they do a school observation visit as part of the assessment. That is really IMO what should happen for every child, but is I know far from the case. In an old job with a neighbouring NHS trust the diagnosis of ASD/Aspergers was based on a one off 1 hour appointment with a single member of the CAMHS team - totally inadequate if you ask me.

I suppose how useful a diagnosis is is questionable too. I actually think my DS1 has many traits - may or may not be diagnosable, but I have never persued this as there didn't seem any point...
For DD3 however she was struggling a lot more in school, and her behaviour was much harder to manage and it felt as if a diagnosis would not only help us understand her better, but also make it easier to access appropriate help and support for her at school.
It isnt uncommon for children with Asperger's to seem to "cope" on the surface. They often learn various coping mechanisms which can then lead to school saying things like "well they seem fine at school" because they are not a huge behavioural problem...However the stress of "coping" often manifests itself as depression/anxiety/behavioural problems at home.

The thing about extra support at school is that clearly your DS finds school a very stresful place and this means school are not properly meeting his needs.Schools often try the line of "well they are not behind" etc...but this doesnt mean that a child's needs are being fully met.
I do feel your DS should at least be on School Action, and have an IEP (individual education plan) which would set out key targets and identify support he may need to achieve these.These may be academic or behavioural or emotional or social...eg if your DS finds playtimes hard to the point of hiding in the toilet then the school have a responsibility to do something about that.

WRT to CAMHS I would personally consider asking further about a full multi-disciplinary assessment for Aspergers but you may not feel this is the most useful way to go right now...
I would definitely however discus his poor self esteem, his sadness and his anxiety and I would ask them what further input they could offer you with helping adress these.
I also think it would be perfectly reasonable to express your concerns about secondary school to them. They will be (or should be) very used to liaising with schools, and I definitely think that opening some communications with DS secondary school NOW before he gets there is a good plan.The more support you can have in place for him before he gets there the better the chances of him not getting too anxious, and finding it a positive experience which will then further boost his confidence etc...
I work in an inpatient setting for teenagers , so most have tried community CAMHS teams and have needed more input, and we work really closely with schools to help the young people re-integrate gradually into school when they are at that stage. Most schools are used to doing this and are very supportive of young people with emotional difficulties.

I will have a think about some good book recomendations and get back to you on that one....

oh, and yes I actually believe that Home Edding did a lot to increase my DC confidence, independance and slef esteem. and maturity too actually. Not to mention it was loads of fun, and it was lovely to see them genuinely happy and interested in life.

Good luck with the CAMHS app.....

Just wanted to pop in (have been lurking) to say that of course the school will try to persuade you out of home educating. This may be partly to do with your child's welfare, but will also be to do with the funding that they will lose.

And suggesting to a headteacher that HE might be better than school for a particular child is going to be like suggesting to a butcher that actually your family were thinking of having a vegetarian meal next Christmas, rather than buying one of his free range organic turkeys like normal.

It is a very very rare Headteacher who sees the benefits of home ed.

(and I predict that you'd have the light back, truly back, within a month of taking him out)

School isn't right for every part of every child's childhood. It's right for all of some people's childhoods, and for some of some people's childhoods, and wrong from start to finish for others. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the child, just that no school environment is going to be optimum for all the children it is supposed to be looking after.

Just a quick post Toffee to say I completely agree with OFM,s view that your DS will not get anything more from the last 21/2 terms at his primary school. I have a feeling the minute you remove him he will pick up in terms of confidence and self esteem. He sounds a bright, articulate boy. The best thing you can do is support him and try to get things in place for a successful re-entry (if that's what you decide) into school.
Big (((hugs))) to you and DS.

Thank you, Ommmward and OM. I know you are right about the headteacher, Ommm. I suppose it is such a scary thing to go against the norm that I am hoping to get everyone's approval and I won't, will I? Particularly the headteacher. I like your analogy about the butcher and the vegetarian.

Optimistic - thank you too for your lovely post. DS is a bright, articulate boy and he is certain that he wants to leave primary school, excited about learning at home and still wants to go to secondary. I think we should just listen to him.

He wrote a very good letter to me, recently, detailing why home education would be better for him. Things like: will learn more from one-to-one teaching; will be quieter so I can concentrate; will not feel sick for six hours a day ; no more panicky feelings....

The deputy head has had another word with the boy (ex-friend) who bullied DS and he phoned today and invited DS round to talk about it. I arranged that they would meet at 1.30 tomorrow. When I told DS, he was enraged. We had a long, long discussion. I pointed out that people were not perfect and sometimes we had to forgive people. But he won't have it and he absolutely refuses to meet the boy tomorrow. I can only accept his decision, but I am very sad about it. They have been friends since they were three.

Meanwhile, I have been researching home education and actually feel quite excited about being freed from the constraints of school for DS and being so closely involved in his education for once.

Well, good luck Toffee and enjoy your time with DS. It's a good start that you are both excited about it. I think you are right to try to get DS to forgive other boy but maybe the bullying just went too deep and he's not ready for that yet. OTOH if in general he is slow to forgive and quick to take offence then that is something you will have to work on just so your DS can have a calm life in future and not be on the emotional rollercoaster. BTW I'm not sure if you are aware that my DD missed Year 8-10 effectively due to CFS/ME. I learnt 2 things: 1. not to ride the emotional rollercoaster with her and 2. 2/3 hours work at home is worth at least one day in school in terms of learning!!
Hope this helps...but have courage and faith in your decisions. DS is your child and any headteacher worth their salt will I'm sure recognise that you have thought about this thoroughly and you are doing the best for your child. I don't actually think that headteachers think school suits everyone it's just that they have to provide it for everyone as best they can and make it fit. Mostly if you are in education you like and care about children as individuals otherwise you wouldn't be in the job!!

I think the fact that the deputy head rang on a Saturday underlines what I'm trying to say, so don't assume they won't understand your actions.....

OO-er big mistake!! The boy rang... sorry..ignore last post!!!

Oh, OFM, for some reason I missed your last post (too many nicknames beginning with O on this thread ) and have only just read it - I'm so sorry I didn't acknowledge it yesterday. You are putting so much thought into it for me and I really appreciate it.

The multidisciplinary assessment that your daughter had is exactly what my friend at the NAS thought my son should have, but it is not on offer through CAMHS here and we had just a couple of hours. Neither were detailed assessments. The first woman chatted informally with my son and decided all his AS traits were down to an anxious personality; the second tested him on understanding idioms. Interestingly, he took the first idioms literally, then caught on to the 'game' and started picking the correct answers. I pointed this out to the psychologist, but she said he couldn't have done this if he had AS .

I am really not sure about pursuing a diagnosis at the moment as my son hates his differences (glasses, dyslexia) and that would just give him another label to cope with. Although, on the other hand, he does actually feel different to everyone, so it might give him an explanation.

Thanks for your advice about CAMHS. That is good advice to use them to liaise with the secondary school, as well as helping my DS with low self-esteem, etc. He is obviously going to need a lot of help settling in to secondary. I'm glad now that I have the appointment.

And thanks for being so positive about home education. It's heartening to hear that it did your children so much good and was such fun for you all.

Optimistic - Thanks for your encouraging post. With regard to the friendship - I am worried about my son's 'all or nothing' approach to friendship too. I accept that he feels betrayed and can't forgive or forget, but it will make life hard for him if he goes on like this. On the other hand, this other boy is turning out very differently from my son and maybe the differences between them are becoming too apparent and the friendship has run its course. I have to ring the boy's mum in a minute and explain that my son won't come. I'm not looking forward to that.

It's lovely to hear about your positive experience of home edding too. Actually, I haven't read a single negative about it, yet, so that is encouraging. In particular, I think it will be good for my son to have extra leisure time as he finds the long school day utterly exhausting.

LeninGrad - thanks for that. I have never considered PDA. I have read the link, but I'm not sure if it fits my son or not, although some things do. I will bear it in mind.