If OFSTED rated a school as outstanding but you didn't like what you saw of the headteachers, would you apply there?

[SnowyGonzalez]

I (and several others I know) found the head and deputy head at this particular school to be somewhat forbidding, and patronising. From what I saw myself, the school is clearly great for the kids except that it has no warmth, no soul. But it has an amazing reputation among parents whose kids are there, and OFSTED thinks it's the bees knees.

Thoughts, anyone?

My ds went to an 'outstanding' infant school. 4 years later he is still having nightmares about how he was treated there and needs counselling. He has SEN too but if you didn't 'fit' into a box that they wanted all the children in you had no chance.Please go with your gut instinct.

Indigo, that is such good advice. Something I think I had "clocked" subconsciously but never stated explicitly as something to watch for.

Unfortunately as the grounds by which "quality" is recognised become ever more bound by economic ideology we will have more and more business people running our schools and the idea of education in all its forms will struggle to compete with that model

there's a school like that near me - the head bullies out all the SN/challenging kids quite early on.

Definitely trust your instincts.

Ds was bullied out of a school by a head like him. He's a very bright boy but needed some support with his social skills which the school didn't give, he was just told off all the time as he didn't conform in the way that they wanted him to. I was advised to send him off to an strict boarding school with a 'strong male housemaster.' I didn't.

Always trust your instincts. Ofsted just exist to tick boxes and don't look for what isn't on their list.

We chose a "good" school further away from the "outstanding" school nearby. The outstanding school has done exactly what others have described and bullied away almost all the SEN children. Two friends fell for the talk and I am staggered by some of the things they tell me and am grateful every day for the fact that I trusted my instincts.

The Headteacher is so important in the school and a bad one can make any school awful.

Hi,

Not sure I trust OFSTED as much wasn't the head of Osfted married to the last government cabinet minster).I'm pretty close to some schools who have had outstanding status and I haven't always agreed with the assessment. Your instinct is telling you it isn't right for your child...Listen to that..My ds was at an nursery rated as outstanding but the reality was that the manager was outstanding at PR. School selection should be a balanced scorecard, e.g does the school suit your child (facilities and academic focus)? What are the exams results? Do they show real progression in learning ? What is the pastoral care like? What are your thoughts about the teachers and governing staff? What does Ofsted say (focus on what they aren't saying and areas for improvements)

The school my dd was at had a good Oftsed and was blahdy terrible (we ended up having to move to get her into another one). Ofsted gives a snapshot of the school which may or may not be accurate. The school my dd and ds are now at was given an outstanding Ofsted report and in my opinion is exceptionally good but there is another outstanding school that she was also offered a place at that I wasn't as keen on.

As everyone else has said, how you feel about the school counts for a lot: you have to be confident that you can leave your child there every day and that they will have his best intentions at heart and that you can work with them if there is a problem.

Don't discount Ofsted but pay attention to your instincts too. A number of years ago we looked round two local secondaries. No 1 good Ofsted but complacent Head whose priorities and interests weren't ours; spent loads on swanky IT 'suite' and had less books for 200 children in the Year than we have at home - I kid you not. I challenged him about the book thing because the school was in a good area with a beautiful setting but when he talked about children not wanting to read and they didn't need books, they could look everything up online I knew it was not for our DS who loves reading. School 2, new enthusiastic Head, committed fantastic staff, not such a good Ofsted. Fast forward 8 years School 1 on National Challenge register (very poor results) and School 2 outstanding .

Both schools in our small town were rated 'stisfactory' when we looked at them years ago - we went with gut feeling (mine and DD's) and chose one over the other. They have both now got good Ofsteds despite difficult catchment with lots of social and economic deprivation. I haven't regretted my choice for a moment, the school is warm, welcoming and excellent - the original Ofsted was a load of nonsense.

I had a similar feeling about my choice, but (like you I hope) ended up with a school that both OFSTED and I agree is great.

But is it not possible for a head teacher to be a good and effective (and thoughtful) manager without being cuddly and childfriendly themselves? Our school's head is pretty hardcore and very focussed on getting the job done (and the OFSTED boxes ticked) but that doesn't stop him employing a very caring set of teachers who take excellent care of the children. The school's SEN co-ordinator is the one we're encouraged to go to see with our individual concerns about our children and that works fine.

I've just removed my ds2 from an Outstanding rated primary school. It was last inspected in 2006 and it used to be very good, but it's rubbish now and they're clearly not coping with the behaviour of the pupils. They've just had an interim report done and aren't going to be inspected for several years now. Nobody will know the truth unless somebody makes a complaint.

You can't totally rely on Ofsted reports. Schools are only inspected every few years and they can change a lot in that time.

Also, this particular primary school came out ridiculously bad in terms of boys' attainment according to The Good Schools Guide.

'.. the school is clearly great for the kids except that it has no warmth, no soul.'

If this is the case, it ain't that great.

You'll wish you hadn't, I think. (Was a primary teacher for 10 years.) If the head and deputy are cold fish, this will be filtering down to their teachers. They may nail smiles to their faces, but underneath it all they're probably very pressurised and possibly isolated. It's a miserable job if you don't like your boss much, and this will be filtering directly into all the relationships in the school.

To lots of parents and OFSTED, 'great' means the kids can jump through hoops/hit the targets and have all the answers rehearsed for when the OFSTED team turn up. Ugh. How repulsive. I think all this means is that the school are teaching to the test.

Take note of what the current batch of parents say, especially those who've had issues there or intensive dealings with staff (e.g. parents of SEN children - they'll know first hand if there is any compassion in the school.) Look at what there is in the school in the displays, playground, etc to show they've got a sense of humour, pride in the childrens' achievements, and chances for all abilities to shine. Ask if you can be shown round by some of the children. Ask about what supports they offer new pupils. Ask about how they encourage children to make and keep friends (in other words, teach them not to bully). Ask about the role of arts in the school (usually very telling - OFSTED hardly rate it as important, and it's one of the most powerful teaching tools to boost childrens' self esteem, along with PE.)Try and get a peek in the staffroom and take note of how many cards/flowers/nice posters/etc there are. Does it look a bit manky to you? It will give you a tiny peek behind the scenes. I did supply for 6 months. The schools I hated the most always had the most depressing staffrooms imaginable.

Thank you all so much for your advice. It's been really enlightening, and has made me feel very lucky to have some element of choice in my DC's schooling.

I would be wondering why the parents think highly of the school? Do those good points make up for the the patronising head? How has the head delt with parents/kids problems? How do you know the school has no soul? Have you talked to school parents about this? Every school has some bad points to be honest - no school is perfect and heads come and go. You do need to trust your gut instinct to a certain extent but also make sure your opionions are based on evidence. I sent my children to a school where I thought the head was quite weak. Roll on a few years and my opinions are different. The parents/teachers/head are a very strong/creative team and the head is actually very very very good with the kids but shy amoung adults. He just comes over badly on open days.

Go visit both schools a second time. Just say you are undecided about which school still. I did and it helped.