Does complaining ever really achieve anything?

[PolarEyes]

I normally post in SN but my laptop won't let me(!)

My DS1 is 5.2, in statement ms primary school (Dx of ASD). He has a statement, which includes 25hrs of LSA support.

We have had numerous issues with the school since his started; the class teacher has made it quite clear she is not comfortable having a child with his dx in her class. I am fairly certain he is not getting the statemented hours but they have applied for 3 additional. I put in a letter of complaint about that and other things. The response was it will be dealt with a Team Around the Child meeting. There wasn't time to go through all the points and nothing was agreed.

A big issue has been communication, school agreed to a communication diary which has not happened yet. His Class Teacher will not allow him to have adult support with dressing despite his statement stipulating he should have a program in place to help him with dressing. The other children help him dress but he comes home with top back to front and inside out ditto jumper and trousers.

Class Teacher suggested we withdraw him from the nativity play which we did initially agree as he hates dressing up. I had a change of heart and asked for him to be included. Mostly because the CT assumed he was going to be disruptive as "a few years ago another child with his DX was and it was a nightmare." We were given the runaround about getting tickets which never actually materialised. they did begrudingly let us in. (he wasn't disruptive btw in fact he is v passive at school atm). We were also the only ones who didn't get a letter about an after school film night.

Today I picked him up to find all the other children were in party clothes. He was in uniform. I hadn't had a letter. I said this to his teacher who said "the helper put it in his bag" I said there was no letter, nor did we get one about Christmas play or the tickets. she just kept repeating about the helper put it in his bag.

I know written down this all seems petty. DS1 is doing well academically speaking and is settled and seems happy. If I mention his class Teacher's name he gets very distressed but can't/won't expand on what the problem is.

I want to remove him as I don't think you can change attitudes. My husband wants to make an appointment with the Head and the Governors and make them provide the contents of his statement and assure us no more social excluding will happen (e.g. the "missing" letters). (we've never spoken to the HT, I did copy my complaint letter to her but no response).

My DS2 is due to start school September 2011 and the deadline for school applications is mid Jan. though we can get DS1 into another school fairly easily as he has a statement, DS2 will probably low priority and I can't have them at different schools from a logistics pov.

oh also speaking to another parent who had a child with SN in the school she had a similar experience re not getting letters home about social/fun stuff happening.

I would agree with your husband and see the Head and or governors. It sounds apalling the way your son is being treated.
He has every right to be at the school and be included - sounds like the teacher has a very poor grasp of ASD and is making decisions on what he should and shouldn,t be included in. Perhaps some things he wouldn't like to do - but that should be decided with your input. Sounds like the teacher finds it all rather inconvienent and isn't looking for ways to be inclusive.
You say he is happy and settled so I would not want to remove him just because of one persons negative attitude.

Complaining is very bloody tiring but of course as a parent of 2 dcs with SEN I often have to. I think you need to target your complaint at the head and governors if you think the class teacher is unsympathetic and unhelpful. There are so many ways they can help you with what are seemingly small things but are actually important to ensure your ds is actually included socially. Why can't the letters be posted or emailed to you? I am very fortunate with my dc's that I do get all the right information and that my dd's TA makes every effort to ensure I know what is happening. The bigger picture though is the attitude. I would agree that if the head doesn't have the right attitude regarding inclusion you will always be fighting for your ds. As a teacher I have met many heads who only pay lip service to inclusion.

I think the answer to this question is that it depends on the HT - you will get nowhere if the HT is not interested in making the school environment the best it can be for your ds. Can the Govenors do anything? I've always seen them as a bit of a nodding shop.

You need to give it a try and have a meeting...we had several with our Head but it became clear after a few meetings that the HT had no balls coupled with a completely inability to influence anyone, so leaving the school was an easier decision...we moved to a very inclusive school and the difference is incredible.

Good luck.

Thanks for the replies.

I have calmed down a bit and see having a last ditch attempted and sorting things out is probably the way to go. I suspect the CT attitude is shared by the HT (the SENCo is also very difficult to deal with). DH's dad was chair of governors at the school DH went to for many years so he has a lot of pointers for us.

I was given a copy of the Statement Implementation Plan today and having read through it is a pile of absolute bullshit. They have done a Foundation Stage Profile and his scores are ridiculously low, and hold no resemblence to what we have seen and been told on his progress. I suspect they are purposely scoring him low to help secure the additional funding and to make themselves look good at the end of the year. sigh.

Why do these things always happen last thing on a Friday!?!

have you been to look round any other schools? Even if you're not keen to move him it may give you a bit of perspective as to how good/bad the current school is. Have you contacted the case worker at the LEA, they carry some responsibility when a statement is involved.

thanks for your post bigcar.
I did view a couple of others before we chose this one. Problem is we are fairly rural and this school is actually 5 miles away. Our local village school isn't an option for various reasons, looked at one other but it would be touch and go whether DS2 would get in and any of the other schools are even further out than his current school so just as risky there. Argh.

I will phone the SEN case officer on Monday. I did rant speak at length to DS1's Specialist Teacher (LA employee) who agreed their attitude was off but urged me to have a meeting with HT etc before removing him as she was very happy with what she saw when she went into observe. though of course they know she is there so that doesn't really prove anything to me sadly

I just wanted to say that as a teacher i think your son's class teacher is behaving appallingly. It is awful that she is trying to stop him from joining in with certain activities. She sounds spiteful and a bully. What reason has she got for refusing to allow him someone to help him dress? I taught Reception last year and trying to get 30 children changed and ready after PE in time for assembly was a nightmare. If I hadn't had my lovely TA, who was especially helpful with 2 children with certain issues but no diagnoses, I would have had to cut the very short PE lesson even shorter! I don't understand why any teacher of young children would turn down the offer of help to get one dressed who finds it difficult to do it himself. There is just no reason for that, so it would make me think that she must enjoy seeing him struggle, which is really warped! If something is written down saying that he should have help dressing then every time help is not given I would be phoning the head teacher asking to know why. That way the head teacher will also want to know why, and will sort something out so that you stop ringing all the time! Lol.

It is totally disgusting that she tried to stop him from being in the play, and then didn't give you tickets. If you hadn't turned up I wonder what she would have done? Had him sat on the sidelines or even put somewhere else in the school I bet. It is also disgusting that your child is the only one not receiving information about special events. I presume that you do check his bag every night so are sure they are lying when they say they put the letter in? If I were you I would be trying to make friends with another parent and asking them to tell you each time there is a new letter. Make a note of everything that you are failed to be informed about so that you can tell the head teacher specifics.

You're right that it is hard to change attitudes, but as the teacher is already being awful to him then complaining much more often to the head teacher won't make things worse. And if the HT is breathing down her neck all the time she may start to realise that she cannot continue to be so bloody unprofessional. It's also very bad form of the HT not to reply to the letter you sent. I would stop sending letters - ring the school and ask to speak to the head instead. Every day if you have to. HTs usually prefer to solve parents' problems than hear them complain all the time, so if you are consistent then things will get done. There's no need to get angry or anything, just complain about every thing that the teacher does that is wholly unprofessional, such as excluding him or making him feel 'different.'

I presume this is a one form entry school? Otherwise I would definitely be asking for your son to be put in another class away from that awful woman.

thanks for reply sims2fan - I wish Ds1 had a teacher like you!

The class teacher has a thing for children dressing themselves. I totally understand why (e.g. can't be dressing 25 kids) but DS1 has a statement and has genuine coordination difficulties. He has made great strides forward but isn't independent in dressing. And as he has a TA for the times when they need to be changing it has left me very unimpressed. In fairness the play was on for the 3 days, and he was in all performances so they did honour our request. However the tickets thing was just plain odd tbh. I was in the office on 4 occasions and the tickets still never materialised.

I spoke to the HT this morning; I didn't intend to but when I asked for a meeting I ended up being ushered into her office.

I can't say it went well, she talked over me a lot, when I said I felt they didn't want him at the school and was considering removing him, she said they did their best but as I had raised lots of issues already maybe I should find another school. She already knew there'd been an issue with the party clothes but claimed the Class teacher had dealt with it. The class teacher did no more than repeatedly claim it was put in his bag by a helper. HT denied there was any intention to exclude DS1 and the lack of letters was just a coincidence. She claimed he'd got to attend all things but when I pointed out he hadn;t got to go the film club she said nothing. She tried to claim an outside agency advised them DS1 shouldn't be in the play, when I tried to state that no, the outside agency merely commented in a report that he wasn't going to be in it she just blustered on.

DH was not impressed when I recounted what happened to him and phoned and asked for the Chair of the Governors to call him.

DS1 was collected by a relative. He came home with his clothes on correctly (first time on a Monday that has ever happened), the home/school diary was in his bag (something the school have had for a couple of weeks as was sent to them by an outside agency), a letter about what is happening at school on last day of term, and a copy of the complaints procedure, with a note from "admin". It made reference to the document which says we had to make a written complaint to the governors before we could have contact with them.

No chance of moving him to another class, he could even end up kept in the same class in YR1 as it is mixed yr group. Technically as an older DC he shouldn't, but as he has a statement they will prob want to keep in it is so the TA is in the class for the reception kids (I have no problem with TA helping other kids btw it is just staying with that teacher!). My DS2 as a summer-born would almost certainly be in her class for 2 years and I am very uneasy about that.

My husband is convinced we will ruin DS1's childhood if we remove him, I say no good can come of him staying there. So we are a total and utter stale-mate and I really don't know what to do. argh.

Move him - you will never make progress with a HT like that.

I spent a year stewing over whether to move my kids or not - and my only regret is that I took a year to come to the decision.

Agree with Indigo - it gets to the point where you realise that letting him stay is as risky as moving him and that's when you realise you are making a decision by doing nothing. Dh worried that all schools were as bad as the old school my ds attended and was reluctant to agree to the change but we met with the new Head Teacher discussed our Ds's difficulties and she came up with really interesting ways to approach things.

Our new school is very inclusive and has the most lovely atmosphere - incredibly caring, not quite as academic but in a sense that was part of the problem, the staff work incredibly hard to give them a positive learning experience - The first school ds attended was pushy school, old fashioned school, with a heart of stone and it didn't suit him one bit.

It is very interesting that the very day you spoke to the head teacher (and husband requested to speak to Governors) suddenly a lot of your issues were addressed! I.e. clothes on correctly, etc. Obviously the HT has had words with the class teacher. HT sounds awful by the way, but at least something has been done. If your son stays at this school you will have to keep on her back all the time to make sure they continue treating your son fairly.

I don't really understand the point about the TA. Is the general TA, that most Reception classes have these days, also the person that gives your son support? Because if he has a statement then he is entitled to extra support. If there was already a TA in that class to help with the class, before your son arrived, then there now should be an additional adult there, whose job it is to support just your son. As far as I know, but don't quote me on this because I could be wrong, the school would get extra funding because of your son's statement to provide this support. If they haven't employed anyone else then where has the money gone??

From what you have said about your meeting with HT she sounds like she doesn't want to have to bother with children with special needs and would rather he wasn't in her school, which is an awful attitude to have. Personally I would be ringing up each and every other local school and asking to speak to the HTs. Explain the situation, explain that you are not a pushy parent but that you just want your son to be able to join in with normal activities and access the curriculum just like other children. Explain what your son can do. If his behaviour is not a problem then this is a huge bonus. It is likely that you will find that one of the other schools has a much more supportive HT who is more willing to try to get the best from all children rather than just seeing their 'problems.' Also, unless the rules have changed recently, once one child is in a school you are much more likely to get a sibling in also, regardless of where you live.

I'm sure the sudden burst of right clothes/diary etc is an excerise in covering arses after my husband's phone call.

The reception class doesn't have a dedicated TA so the one in there is there to support DS1. Though his statement doesn't tie down the support for him so they can use on a whole class/small group or 1:1 basis.

other schools are a sticking point with DH and me as he is worried about DS1 ended up in a worse one, and DS1 has made a couple of friends at his current school. Plus the TAs do seem to really "get" him and definitely respect and value him. Unfortunately it is quite apparent that neither the CT or the HT feel the same way. DH says he won't stop me moving him but nor will he be supportive of it until we have exhaused all avenues with current school e.g. meeting with govenors etc.

DS2's school application has to be in by mid Jan, and unless DS1 has moved by then he won't get sibling priority. So I really feel backed into a corner. Will ring the other viable option and see if this time I can get to speak to the CT, as if I'd have done that with this school I am sure I would have picked up on her vibe and decided against it.

I was a school governor for a very long time.

It's good that things are starting to be addressed, following your meeting with the HT, but the school's point about working through the procedures in the complaints policy is a fair one - the chair of governors is unlikely to agree to a meeting or even a phone call until you can demonstrate that you have worked your way through all the preliminary stages of the complaints process.

You commented earlier that an argument against moving your son is that it would be logistically difficult if your two children were in different schools. You need (of course) to check the potential new school's admissions criteria, but it's very likely that if your son did transfer to a different school, his sibling would then be a high priority for admission. This is less certain, though, if you're in an area which treats in-catchment and out-of-catchment siblings differently.

Honestly, you will never be able to change the HTs or teachers attitude. It is part of their personality.

You don't want to go down the formal complaint route - because it won't work. You will never be able to make the HT and teacher different people than they are.

Cut your losses and start again. A fresh start knowing all that you now know will go better. Because you have learnt about communication and what schools should do....

In what way could another school be worse? This school has been absolutely appalling.

Thanks for replies

asmallbunchofmistloe it was DH's dad suggestion to try and arrange a meeting with the HT and chair as he was a chair of governors for some 17 years as DH and I were trying to avoid formal written complaints which will then hang around on record. But it looks like that is the the only route in to access which is fair enough.

Yes our area has 5 priority categories and sibling out of area is 4th, 5th being all others so even if we got DS1 into another school before deadline for DS2's school application it would still be touch and go. I could potentially wait it out as DS2 will only actually be just turned 4 when he starts so I could gamble a bit on a place becoming available at some point.

I hear what oyu are saying Indigo Bell, but a worse school could have the same attitude and not as good TAs and DS1 not make any friends. They are all going to talk to the talk but the reality will only be truly known once DS1 has moved. Also the only other real option school-wise is small (intake PAN of 19) so smaller pool of children. As DS1 greatest difficulties are with social interactions it does worry from a making friends pov.

Think I am going to seriously research home-ed as I can't continue to keep taking him to his current school but don't see an immediate solution available for another without moving house which isn't really a viable option for lots of reasons.

I can understand how you feel but, as you say, schools now (and this was probably different in your FIL's days as a governor) want and need complaints to be formalised and on record.

Does your LEA have a Parents' Advocate (or similar title) who could help you push the school better to support your son?

I will get the letter done and do really understand the need for a papertrail etc. Just whilst we wait for a response I am leaving a vulnerable child in the care of people who quite blatantly discriminate against him. Not a good feeling!

There is an LA employee involved who is really trying to resolve things but the problem is the school nod along and then do whatever they want. LA person has basically told me to take their attitude on the chin and just deal with it each time they exclude DS1 from things/ignore his statement. Only problem with that is DS1 has communication difficulties. So it is not like he can tell me stuff and therefore I am really relying on the school to tell me things which they aren't going to do when it reflects badly on them.

Also meant to say thanks for replying , I'm aware I am just basically moaning and appreciate you taking hte time time to reply.

Oh, you're very welcome. I don't think I've done anything but state the very obvious . And in your circumstances you're entitled to moan. Your son's needs aren't being met even though the school has a statement saying very clearly what those needs are; in fact, you're entitled to be livid.

You may be mis interpreting (because you dont have the full context) the outcome of your Husband's request to speak to the chair of Governors. What you report as happening is:-

1. Suddenly some immediate issues get addressed

1. You receive written notification of how to use the formal complaints procedure even though you had not

requested it.

This suggests a conversation has taken place between chair and HT...

It also suggests that the chair wishes to make sure you are aware of your rights, and that you know how to make a formal complaint should you wish to. Because then he can take it up properly. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he would LIKE you to make a formal complaint.

My advice?

Be prepared to leave, but also make the formal complaint.

And does complaining achieve anything?

Well yes. Sometimes it does, although you may not see it.

In the school were I am a governor we had a number of complaints about an issue a few years ago. The existence of these complaints gave the Head the leverage she needed to get the problem fixed. This, however, could never be admitted -officially.