Excessive punishment - should I say anything?

[Solo2]

DS1 aged 9 has a class teacher who doesn't teach him any subjects and rarely sees him. He has had a few 'run-ins' with this teacher on the rare occasions he's had him for anything. Today, DS1 made a mild joke when the class were doing a fun quiz instead of Games (it was too cold to let them out). Teacher sent him out of the class to stand in the corridor for 1 hr 40mins. DS1 was distraught by the time he came out tonight and I'm afraid I also feel that the teacher was well OTT with the punishment. DS1 had said nothing rude and was simply getting a laugh, without meaning any harm.

This same teacher has also told DS1 to come for detention at lunchtime, when DS1 did something else v mild (talking to himself quietly whilst revising) but then never turned up for the punishment and left DS1 waiting all break in the classroom alone and confused.

This teacher also kept in the entire class, making DS1 miss an important music ensemble he plays in, just because one or two others (NOT DS1) had been a bit rowdy one morning.

This teacher is newly qualified and seems to have a diffculty with managing discipline and clearly overreacts with punishments, porbably because he feels he lacks authority. This is the same teacher I mentioned on another thread about a punishment for not changing within 5 mins after Games, involving missing both morning and lunch breaks and then dressing and undressing back and forth in and out of clothes on your own in front of the teacher.

I have to say I am completely FURIOUS tonight and want to go ina nd give him a piece of my mind but DS1 is adamant that he doesn't want me to say antyhing at all otherwise it'll get worse. From a detached perspective, I'm also wondering if it's wise to keep silent as there's little that can be done to change a teacher's idea of fairness, I presume.

It would be questioning his authority and certainly no other staff would do anything other than be on the side of their colleague.

Would you say anything or just let things be? Am I over-reacting because this is my own son and I feel v protective towards him? Is this kind of unfairness just what children have to accept as part of school life and hopefully they'll then learn not to provoke any similar situation in future?

Oh come on, SingleDadio, you can't forget kids who have been sent out! It's very definitely not on.

Of course you can Feenie. It's not done on purpose. Personally I don't make children send outside the room to make sure I don't forget but doesn't mean it doesn't happen in other places.

leaving a kid out side for that length of time cannot be justified, even if he forgot!!!
Bravo for trying to make it sound less worse than it is but really....

SingleDadio, this is possibly the SECOND time he's 'forgotten' my DS during a punishment, presuming he actually didn't mean to send DS out for 1 hr 20 mins for making one joke. Once is forgiveable - twice needs addressing. Forgetting for 1 hr and 20 mins is a bit much, isn't it?

The child involved - my son - was incredibly distressed. This is NOT OK. I was trying to convey the sense that this is a young, inexperienced teacher, to sort of partly excuse him,as we all make mistakes when young but alongside this context there's a 9 yr old little boy who has suffered inappropriately harshly and if it were your DS - wouldn't you be up in arms by now, no matter how young and inexperienced the teacher was?

Not really because I would fully support the teacher. My child should be upset if they are in trouble. I would much rather my child be crying and upset than not to care. How do you know it was for that long?

Wow! SingleDadio, are you actually a parent at all? If you have a child who makes a silly joke in the context of an informal classroom fun game quiz event, would you really want him put in a corridor all alone for 1 hr and 20 mins and end up distraught?

I would fully support the teacher to reprimand him and after a second warning, either put him out for 5 mins max or tell him that he'd have to read or do some maths or something instead of joining in the quiz, if he persistently kept larking around.

But this was one minor jokey comment, not even rude.

I know what happended now and for how long he was put out because I got other mums to check with their children who were witnesses. Apparently, all 4 in DS1's group laughed - once - at this one joke. DS then got put out for 1 hr 20 mins. That's what happened. It's not as if he's sworn, hurt a child, hit a teacher. He's 9. He made one small joke. Should he really end up distraught? How will that 'teach him to care'?

This teacher and others are known 'jokers' themselves - liking to get their class to laugh. I'm sure DS was only modelling his behaviour on the teacher's own tendency to joke but I suspect the teacher felt that his authority had been threatened and already has a reputation of losing control of his class. So he ends up over-reacting.

I suspect you're trying to play Devil's Advocate here, SingleDadio and in RL would want to defend any child you had/ have as any parent would/ does.

Yes i am a parent, a single dad to three children hence the name.

You are overreacting in my opinion. First of all 9 yr olds fabricate stories. A few years ago I asked some children to write down their point of view about a bullying incident that happened in my class. They has to write their names on it. At the end of the day I had 6 parents complain because their children told them I'd asked them to sign a confession.

I'm not suggesting this is the case but I'm saying wait until you've got the full story from an adult not children.

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have been an isolated incident and the little joke could have been after many other things he'd done. Have a bit of perspective before you go blaming the teachers inexperience.

Just reread your last comment and I'm sorry but no I wouldn't defend them if they were in the wrong. Yes the punishment may have been excessive if this is all he did but he did something wrong and was punished. Regardless of whether the other children are jokers, you need to focus on your own child's behaviour.

I would question the teacher's qualification. Private schools attract a certain standard of teacher -those who have specialist skills in one particular area (and not a lot else) and also those who performed poorly at degree level. You do not need a teaching qualification for a private school, though most good schools demand them.

This teacher appears to be using outmoded punishments, so what is he basing his teaching technique on?

It's totally inexcusable to send a child out and forget about them for an hour and twenty minutes, Singledadio. If it truly was for that length of time, then a 9 year old would have been completely unsupervised, which is shocking in itself.

The teacher sounds terrible. I would definitely see the headmaster. I wouldn't put up with that and would raise high heaven if something wasn't changed.

Yes, it WAS for that length of time but what I don't know yet is whether the teacher forgot or whether he felt that 1 hr and 20 mins standing alone in the corridor was actually an acceptable punishment for making a joke at the start of an informal fun quiz. Maybe he feels, like Singledadio, that this did indeed merit such a punishment. I dread to think what would have happened had DS made a second joke or done something really dreadful, like make a joke at the teacher's expense!

I've verified the truth via parents of some of the extremely good, reliable children in the class.

I stay with my view that this punishment was excessive and that a mild reprimand and a warning would have been enough to indicate to DS that this was not going to be such a fun informal game as he'd obviously first thought.

However, until I hear back from the teacher, I won't know everyone's side of this and of course it's not at all about not supporting school discipline. I'm one of those parents who will back the school on almost all occasions, as this is what we've 'bought into'. It's just that when I see more than one example from the same teacher with DS and also with other people's children of what is so obviously unreasonably excessive punishment or unreasonable responses, then I feel that this merits me finding out more and expressing my disquiet.

From what i know about the teacher, he has a good academic background but maybe should have taught older children at this point in his career, so that he doesn't have to deal with subtle social nuances of levels of discipline and control in this age group.

"I expect that the teacher in question either doesn't check his work emails after 5pm on Fridays"

And why should he? He's not at work.

SoupDragon, yes, I agree. It's just frustrating that's all and there are a few other teachers who do actually reply to and write emails across weekends and even on Sunday nights - which has always impressed me a lot!

Running my own business means I have to be available as much as I possibly can 24/7 despite also solo parenting, so I guess I think to myself - if I can, then why can't he? But I realise that he's different to me and it's not running his own business. It's employment, with a contract.

Your are right singledadio the parents do need to look at their son's behaviour. but there is also a health and safety risk here if a 9 year old is left unsupervised for such a long period of time and that is a competency issue. The teacher has not forfilled the 'in loco parentis' part of their job.

It is completey unacceptable no matter what the 'crime' was...kids removed from class MUST be supervised and should understand what the punishment is, how lonbg it will last and why it has been given.

Although I have no idea why that needs to be explained to a deputy head.

Whether or not he deserved to be sent from the room, it should not have been for such a ridiculous length of time.

I remember your other post. This is a private school and I understand you are loathe to remove your sons from the school, but the current situation with this teacher is obviously bothering you a great deal (it would me too if I were in your position). Based on that I would make an appointment with the head even if it is several weeks hence, and document your concerns with specific times etc.

At worst he can label you a trouble-maker and do nothing (then you can make you own judgement about the school), but more likely he will listen to what you say, investigate and action, or at least clarify the discipline policy

One thing is for certain if you don't say something nothing will change.

I would also be concerned if my son had been receiving that treatment at school. Whether or not the teacher forgot that he had asked your son to wait behind for a punishment he left him alone for 80 minutes during which time your child was unsupervised. If he had forgotten about your child I would have expected him to have apologised to both your son and you (after all, you are presumably paying for this neglect). If it was done deliberately, then he chose to neglect your child. Presumably other teachers do not use such primative punishments. I would be furious and, after I had received the teacher's e mail response, would forward it to the head teacher with a note of your concerns.

Who says he wasn't supervised? How do you know here wasn't a group working in the corridor or an adult working near by?

At no point have I said the punishment is acceptable. I actually said earlier that it was very excessive. All I'm stating is that you need to look into it further rather than immediately calling into question the teachers qualifications. You need to wait until you've actually spoken to or heard from the teacher.

As for feenie's comments, at no point did I need anything explained to me'. If you want to read into my post things that aren't there feel free. I was just suggesting an alternative opinion.

OP I think your attitude is really bad and undermines any legimate complaint you might have.

All I can see is someone who has taken a dislike to someone, talks about him in an incredibly disrespectful way and expects him to be at her beck and call.

You don't know the facts. You have one side. Please don't go in all guns blazing. Take a step back. You might be making your DS's life more difficult by undermining his teacher, however unintentionally, you could be encouraging bad behaviour in your DS.

What he counts as making a bit of a joke could be just another example of a series of bad behaviour which you appear to be validating with you attitude.

None of this helps anyone

Think the OP needs to work with the school to improve their ds's behaviour if it is an issue BUT the approach this school is taking with regard to dicipline is completely excessive and will build resentment in a 9 year old rather than respect. The teacher in question needs support and training to help him develop appropriate strategies in dealing with poor classroom behaviour.

It doesn't really matter what other parents at school feel - some parents rely heavily on schools to teach their children dicipline so they can play the popular good guy and are happy for the school to come down hard on their kids so they don't have to.

If you feel uncomfortable with the approach the school/teacher are taking you know your choices fix it or move!

Marchpane, I was trying to contextualise the teacher's behaviour by describing him - and diffusing my anger by 'putting him down' a bit. I shouldn't be disrespectful, I know. I'm just feeling very angry and protective towards my little boy.

Well, since all the above posts, I've now been in email contact with the teacher, who in fact contacted me late last night, which I appreciated and told him so.

As with previous incidents - some of which don't involve my own child (like the Maths homework for the top set) - he HAS distorted the truth and I'm afraid that I still DO therefore see him as an overgrown schoolboy himself, trying to wriggle out of trouble. This isn't helped by his awful grammatical mistakes throughout his emails.

However, Singledadio, there WAS more going on than DS1 told me and, as I haven't gone in 'all guns blazing' but merely asked for clarification from the teacher, then channels of communication are now opened.

The facts are that DS1 had been noisy earlier in the cloakroom and got into trouble with another teacher for this and got a 'minus' point from that other teacher. So he came into the fun quiz class unsettled and upset.

According to the teacher, he (the teacher) didn't want DS1 to get another minus point so when he wouldn't settle, put him out in the corridor with a book. Now, according to DS1, DS1 was standing for the whole time and according to the teacher, DS1 was sitting (though the only place to sit there is a narrow windowsill). According to DS1, the teacher couldn't possibly have seen him whilst he was out, as the classroom door frame prevents this - and this I also know to be true as I know the locality and you can't see out of the classroom unless you walk right up to the small glasss part on the side of the door furthest from the teacher's desk.

The teacher clearly wants me to think that DS1 was at all times observed - therefore supervised - but this isn't likely to be true as the teacher would have been sitting at his desk, with his back to the door and glass, supervising a quiz for 25 other children.

The length of time out differs too. The teacher claims it was only 40 minutes and DS1 claims it was the whole of the double Games period - 1 hr and 20 mins. I assume it was probably somewhere between these two times, as it was clearly across the 1 hr 20 min block of time for that double period.

The teacher has admitted forgetting about DS1 on a different occasion, when he'd told DS1 to see him at lunch break but again the story differs as DS1 told me he was alone in the classroom all lunch break and the teacher tells me that he could only have been there 15 mins.

Other witnesses to the current incident indicate that DS1 was sent out for just about the whole of 1hr and 20 mins and was standing and not reading, throughout that time, at least when he was seen. However, as these other witnesses are children and you could argue are less than reliable, then again I assume that part of what DS1 says is the truth and part of what the teacher says is the truth.

If this were an experienced teacher, where there was no other history of 'distorting the truth', forgetting children, overreacting to behaviour, then I might be more inclicned to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the context of my concerns are within a background of other parents and children having problems with the teacher.

It would be more clear cut if my child were absolutely immaculately behaved but as DS1 is sometimes trying to be the class joker (this is partly for bravado and partly because he feels he doesn't have friends this yr), then I have to accept that part of what the teacher says must be true.

On the other hand, it has indeed been regarding other perfectly behaved children that the teacher seems to 'distort the truth of what happened', despite other witnesses reporting to the contrary and also to over react to 'misbehaviour' eg when children take more than 5 mins to change for Games.

So I feel I really need to keep an eye on both my son and the teacher. I've asked the teacher to keep me up to date with things and I'll see how things transpire. I think senior staff must be aware by now that several parents are less than happy with the teacher.

Marchpane, I've held back my more emotional reaction with the teacher and put it all out on MN instead. With the teacher directly, I've bene very respectful and open to his interpretation and am reflecting on how to proceed from here. Of course I know my son best and I understand the context in which he's been playing the joker at school (whole other thread on the Gifted & Talented but Failing at School on MN) and so I can see the full background which makes me know that this isn't about a little boy being badly behaved. I think it's about an inexperienced teacher coming up against his own fear of losing control with pupils and sometimes making mistakes.

Solo2, I think SingleDadio's approach would be quite reasonable on the basis of just this thread, but having read many of your threads, now, in several different parts of mumsnet, I entirely agree with you that you have every right to be concerned. You do not get that many worrying incidents by accident - the school is not acting in an appropriately co-ordinated fashion with respect to your ds and your ds is suffering as a result. I hope you manage to sort this out, as I am feeling your frustration and anger myself, at the moment! One wonders whether the head of pastoral care has effectively passed messages on to your ds's form teacher, and whether his inexperience makes him incapable, even if she has, of dealing with the information effectively. There seems to be a considerable lack of support and communication going on from many different sides, despite your best efforts to understand what is going on.

Obviously my post was based just on this thread and not on others. If there is a continuing issue with this teacher then you need to speak to his manager and raise your concerns or put it in writing.