SATS grades - Should I speak to the school?

[ohforfoxsake]

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I understand the grading system, so I'd like another's perspective please.

DS1 left his last school at the end of May towards the end of Year 3. He joined a new school in an older Year 3/younger Year 4 class. He has just turned 9.

His final report at his old school gave test results as:
reading: 4c
writing:3a
Maths; 4c

His results today, 6 months later from his new school are:
reading:3b
writing: 3c
Maths: 3c

Now, I understand that it is common for children to drop one finer point over the summer holidays, but this, to me (and if I am reading them correctly) seems a significant drop.

According to his new school, these tell me he is average and achieving as he should, which is great. But his last school had him as G&T and his teachers were very enthusiastic about his abilities.

His new teacher is a NQT in his first job. I don't know if that makes a difference.

I try not to get hung up on SATs grades, but given the big shift in results, the move hundreds of miles away, I'd really like to understand what is going on before I speak to the teacher.

Thank you, again, Mumsnet

Shameless bumping of my own thread.
Busy on here tonight

TBH, I think you need to speak to his teacher.

YR2 Sats are mostly teacher assessed, so that could explain the difference.

I think the G&T scheme varies from school to school too.

At our school DS had the same scores as your ds original school, without a mention from the teachers about gifted and talented.

I wonder if these grades are teacher assessments or test results? A one off test result won't be as reliable as a sound teacher assessment using varied sources of evidence.

They are more likely to be teacher assessments, and you are right to be concerned - this isn't 'getting hung up on SAT results', this is how he works day to day. I would raise this as a concern, tell the teacher his previous teacher assessments and discuss with her the possible reasons for the discrepancy.

But those results were from Y3, weren't they, not Y2? Not that it should make any difference - both should be teacher assesment ideally.

Yes, year 3. He took his SATs at his last school. As far as I know they have sent his results on so they should be aware of his previous. So his previous teacher knew him for a year before his final report, but this latest one - and that both of them are new to the school - makes me wonder about this assessment.

Mankyscottslass - his Year 2 teacher was very enthusiastic about his capabilities and being G&T, but it wasn't really mentioned again. I never really followed up on the G&T thing.

Thanks to both of you for confirming what I thought. I know there is another child in his class who has also had a drop.

They told his mother that they hadn't tested higher than Level 3. Which makes me wonder how they could assess those above?

I'd ask the teacher for more details- was it assessment or exam?

If they were both assessments then I'd be asking more questions.

"They told his mother that they hadn't tested higher than Level 3. Which makes me wonder how they could assess those above?"

How ridiculous! Even if their assessment is as rudimentary as one optional Y3 SAT, then that test's results go up to level 4.

I would definetely go in and have a word with the teacher.

My DS is now in YR4, his scores last year were practically the same as your DS.

I know he has levelled out a bit so far this year, at the moment he is looking like making only one sub level improvement in some areas this year. But I know that it's not unusaal and his progress needd to be seen over the whole KS.

I would be concerned about the drop too.

Is that me being ridiculous Feenie? or that they didnt test higher?

Oh, the school, of course! It's not at all unusual for Y3 children to be working at level 4 - there are uually a handful in every year group, especially in reading.

It is worth mentioning this to the teacher... Ask if he thinks these current SAT scores are an accurate representation of your ds's levels/ abilities and why he thinks there is a drop...
I don't think the drop is that significant really, you're only looking at 2 sub levels and it is only Nov...
However you do have to bear in mind that your previous school might have oversold his abilities and G&T in one school is not necessarily G&T in another.
This is what happened to my sons.. I moved them at this same point and both had a drop and were working at a lower standard than the children in the new school. One has caught up, and gone way beyond, and the other is hovering at average.

oh and I don't think for one second they didn't test yr 3 children above level 3... I think they just said that to keep the other mother at bay.

Is this an example of how two different schools mark differently and therefore why there are some discrepancies of the results nationally?
One teacher might have used classroom assessments to give final result, the other might have just used a test. Obviously we dont know but I would certainly ask questions. At least then you will know!

"therefore why there are some discrepancies of the results nationally?"

What do you mean, RoadArt?

My DS's Y3 teacher said to me, when I queried a teacher assessment grade on his end of year report (why he hadn't been given a 4 for reading when my older son had 3 years previously, and I knew DS2 was more advanced comparatively) that 'none of the children got a 4 this year, I don't know why'. The other Y3 teacher, who took my son for literacy, told me that 'we're not allowed to give 4s in Y3 anymore so your DS1 must have been the last year'.

Schools do assess differently. Some choose to report a 'minimum' level showing the required progress.

When I moved DS, his grades dropped by 2 sub grades across the board.

Then next year they jumped up again.

I think it just took him a little while to settle into the school and get used to the way they do things. So partly he wasn't doing his best because he was concentrating on 'settling in', and partly his first school was very generous with its grades.

For example the first school used to say 'this is an assesment, do your best', whereas the other school wouldn't tell them they were being assessed.

He told me that the tests in the first school were easier than in the second. I can't explain why - but I know that the second school is a better school and gets better resuls.

At the first school kids often didn't get their predicted grades in KS2 Sats - which is the first and only time their work gets marked by someone outside the school...

"The other Y3 teacher, who took my son for literacy, told me that 'we're not allowed to give 4s in Y3 anymore so your DS1 must have been the last year'."

But then how can they teach children who are working at level 4, if they are not 'allowed' to assess them as such?
Never heard anything so ridiculous!

It depends what these are levels FOR. When I was full-time I tended to level 2-3 pieces of longer writing over the course of a half term... sometimes they did a, well being honest, completely crap bit of work that day - I'd record the level of that piece of work - but if I had to give an overall level for that moment in time - I'd use the ongoing knowledge I had and write the bad piece of work off as a one-off.

If I showed scores to parents during open evenings - I'd say "this is what I levelled the last piece of writing X did as - I think it's not representative and he had an off day, these are the ongoing levels he HAS been getting." But writing particularly, especially if you're not in a school with multiple teachers in one year group to bounce opinions off, can be a bugger to level because it's all best-fit at the end of the day. We used to spend hours on an evening arguing over if something was a 1/2 or 3 and then a/b/c!

Could be the old school or teacher inflated levels, could be the new one's deflated levels (I've inherited kids before with absolutely ridiculous levels given to them - and another colleague agreed on my assessments when I queried whether it was the levels or my sanity at question). And sometimes kids dip back... sometimes they suddenly get everything and woosh ahead - basically they resolutely refuse to progress on the nice neat progress curve that governmental bods persist in thinking they do!

I always feel like I'm quite tough levelling kids - but then again, I mark KS2 tests so my marking gets quite heavily moderated every year so I know I'm pretty much spot on... but even with very precise markschemes and intensive training we can kill hours trying to work out if one written question is worth 1 or 3 marks!

It's worth being mildly concerned over the drop back and keeping an eye on if it bounces back up or continues though. It's something I'd be keeping an eye on (but again, just be wary in case his previous levels were somewhat overstated).

Could it be he's gravitated toward the wrong crowd in the new school as well? Always a possibility and sometimes you cringe when a nice new kid shows up in your class and promptly buddies up with the worst possible role models going! (I swear they're magnetic)

I think you need to bear in mind that it takes a while to settle into a new school and adapt to new situations.

I am really, really grateful to you all for your advice.

I'll go through this thread and make my points to raise. DH taking DS to school so will arrange the meeting.

Thanks for sharing your experience too. I take the point about settling in - that has occurred to me too.

Looking at the grades he has dropped two fine points on most subjects. His target in writing is one point higher, his numeracy is two higher - which I think he is capable of already - and his reading his 3 higher - but he can read as well as I can, so I don't understand that!

This has really helped me. Thank you everyone.

Only one of the assessment foci refers to fluency though, ohforfoxsake - the rest refer to being able to answer questions about inference, deduction, authorial intent, etc.

Emptyshell, teacher assessment in schools has had to get more sophisticated than the situation you describe since the nature of KS1 assessment changed in 2005, so you may not have seen it so much in evidence if you haven't taught full time for a while. Y2 teachers are well used to producing a wealth of evidence to prove their judgements are sound. In most schools, this way of making sound judgements and good practice has obviously filtered through to the rest the school. In a few, silly comments such as 'level 3 in KS2 is different' still remain - if anything, a KS1 level 3 should be the more reliable judgement, since the evidence required to award it is robust and has historically been moderated externally by the LEA (not so from this year - funding, etc).

I read the post that he'd moved mid-y3 and was now in year 4.

Teacher assessment tends to be a little over-inflated. Also there is something they refer to as the Y3/4 dip when children appear to stagnate. I taught a child at Y6 who appeared to have made no progress at all between Y2 and Y4 - in fact he appeared to have slipped backwards. But a the end of Y6 he achieved Level 5 in maths and science and a 4b in English, which was his "poor" subject. It happens a lot.

When I job shared a year 2 class (before I gave up classroom teaching) we did the writing sats paper as instructed. My partner and I then marked the writing and one child came out as a level 2A. This is also what we would have given him looking at his classwork. Our head was having a tizzy as we did not have any level 3 writers that year. (Only 9 children in year 2 and 3 with major SEN so not a total suprise). She sent his writing off to a different school who had level 3 writers and they sent it back saying yes, this a level 3. The writing was then sent to the county moderating people (Or whoever they are) who sent it back saying this is 2B. So, same peice of work, same marking criteria.......3 different people saying it was 2B, 2A and level 3. At that point I decided levels were a load of nonsense...........
Also in tests we had children in maths being level 3...but by one mark...and we knew that really they were not that at all and it was a fluke! So maybe find out if either levels were tests or assesments...tests are not always reliable!

Ariesgirl, the Y3/4 dip only occurred because of the discrepancy in KS1 and KS2 assessment pre-2005.

Y2 were assessed using tests only, the level 2 test allowed equipment, and both level 2 and level 3 tests were untimed.

Fast forward to Y3 assessment - this was usualy just by Y3 optional SAT, which was timed and allowed no equipment.

Now both year groups use the same whole school assessment and the same criteria. The assessment methods are the same and so are comparable.

Hels71, the situations you describe are exactly why KS1 assessment was changed!