How are waiting lists legal?

[AdelaofBlois]

Am applying for schools for DS1 at the moment. Quite tricky for various reasons, most particular to him, and not seeking advice.

I am, however, being attacked by my parents for not putting him on a 'waiting list' as my sister did for her DS (at 1!). The LA denies waiting lists exist, yet I hear parents all the time talking about having put their kids on such a list.

Problem is, I just can't understand how a list would be morally right or legally possible. Admissions criteria may annoy me (particularly those which demand faith) but they seem fairly straightforward-an assessment is made based on the child's needs and background at a particular date. How on earth could it be possible to advantage one child whose parents had arrived in an area earlier over another child who meets the criteria but moved there later, or a child whose parents had the time and background to research lists over a child whose parents didn't? Surely that would be simply wrong, untransparent and illegal.

Am asking seriously how this is allowed anywhere. Lack the energy for legal action, but would piss me off enormously if some middle-class cartel is running admissions policy in ways which are hidden and unfair.

In a state school?

State school- absolutely.

Runoutofideas This is what I want to believe and, reading this thread, increasingly do. The fact that schools might themselves be spouting bollocks certainly helps me in an explanation based on misinformation.

As I said, this really wasn't about DS1. I'm not sure what I want in a school for him (he seems bright but has a speech disorder) and am doing the best I can by using my own judgement, information from SaLTs and nursery about how he will be in certain settings, visiting the schools themselves (and I'm lucky here because I volunteer at one and was offered a place as a TA at 4 when I was in a panic over childcare) and asking the usual questions about continuity and future plans. I hope I will know what I want when I see it, or at least what comes closest.

Am going to contact my sister though, the problem might actually be far more pressing for her than me.

Thank you all for your reassurance, and for being good enough to realise I wasn't seeking to do the indefensible, just to understand why it seemed so many people thought they could.

And, of course, stuff like Simbacatlives says. You couldn't help feeling that a parent who'd been involve din the school from 2 would feel entitled to a place, whatever the legalities. What a strange line to take. Do they explain this doesn't guarantee a place?

The area that I live in has a huge pressure on primary school places, and all sorts of shenanigans carried out by people to get where they want to be. I have never heard anyone mention waiting lists though. Has some of this come from your mum? It's the sort of drivel my parents would well-meaningly come out with!

Thank you for mentioning this, Adela. Couldn't get my head round it myself, either, when I hear about children being on the "waiting list".
Thanks for the posters for answering this; it seems that if you contact the school earlier on than necessary, they seem to take you name/snow you round and say "thank you, dear, you're on the waiting list" as they file your details under B.I.N and wait for the proper forms etc to be filled in at the proper time...

Of course they do. But the school is small, rural and never oversubscribed- if it was they would exceed the mal by agreement with the la- it is the only school.

My sil livescin London. Her son attends a very oversubscribed school. He was 2 when she moved into the area- registered an interest and they then emailed her the weekly newsletter and invited her to sports day and plays etc. Very clear no place guarantee. We discussed whether she should go- didn't want to build up Childs expectation. However as she lived 4 doors away and distance is main criteria- pretty safe!

Problems come when parents set their heart on a school and build that into their child. A 4 year old shouldn't even know about admissions but I often hear them using very adult language to talk about the school they are going to. My other sils child told us she had 'won' a place at an oversubscribed school!! She was 4 - the previous year she had explained to us how this school was the best and the only one she could possibly go to!

There is still a myth going around that the earlier you register interest for a state school, the more likely your child is to secure a place there. This is not true, but trying to convince parents of this can be hard.

However, AFAIK the private sector does operate in this way, so perhaps this is why some people think it is the same in the state system.

Having said all of that, and I know it's true, I am now starting to worry that i have missed a trick somewhere with this process (DD starting next Sept).

Which I'm sure is the place that all of these funny ideas are coming from in teh first place!

If the school runs a pre-school you are likely to get a place there on the basis of how early you put a child's name down on a list. But that won't affect the availability of a place at Reception, which will be allocated according to published criteria.

Maybe that's where the misunderstanding comes from?

piprabbit with respect phoning the school and saying you want to put your child's name down has very little to do with the actual process of applying for a place. Parents can usually register on line or using a paper form with the LA between Sept and Dec of the year prior to the child starting school.

The only exception I can think of is where attendees of the nursery get priority at the school (rare but not unheard of). I don't know whether you could beat the system by applying really early to the nursery (probably illegal still).

MrsVincent Price I've seen one or two who use that on their admissions criteria, but it's fairly low on the list in most cases, and you do seem to have to attend the nursery.

That would seem to me a systemic problem, of which there are many (it's obvious that it hardly creates an equal playing field, and who can blame individuals for playing it if they can, even if you feel it is socially corrosive and unlikely to be massively effective). What worried me more, and does so less now, is that there seemed to be an informal non-systemic (basically, an illegal) approach too.

It sounds as though the school your SiL thinks she's on the waiting list for is going for maximum marks in the 'community cohesion' part of an Ofsted/similar!

My school is a massively over-subscribed London state primary and anyone can have the newsletter e-mailed to them if they choose to sign up on the school website. Once they receive that (or choose to download it) they could also consider themselves invited to sports days, performances etc. The truth is that they are no more/less 'invited' than anyone else.

As a local teacher and local parent of small children I sometimes feel like I spend my life explaining how the admissions system works (or doesn't, depending upon your view!) and I've frequently found myself to be better informed than the LA admissions team which is rather alarming . I am however in a minority as most school staff don't have anything to do with admissions and so will often say things based upon their own experience rather than the current situation.

Aside from submitting a fraudulent application there are very few ways of circumventing the admissions process. My own child missed out on a Reception place at my school (where she was attending the nursery) due to fraudulent behaviour elsewhere in the borough. The knock-on effect of this fraud was that a number of children, including the child of the fraudulent parent, changed schools part way through the Reception year.

Lots of people were staggered that a teacher's child who was already at the school nursery and who lived 670m away didn't get a place and few could believe that it was due to an admissions code that sought to make things 'fair' to all. DD2 may get a place on the basis of having a sibling at the school and may be a priority due to having mobility needs (my school is the nearest single-storey school) but only time will tell. If she gets a place it certainly won't be because she's been involved in the school since she was 5 days old!

Oooh, you lot know your stuff- can anyone tell me when I need to do anything with DD? Like you SE13Mummy, I live in London. DD is 2 at the end of the month.

Should I have done something already?

The worst thing is, I'm a teacher and I haven't got a clue

Tethersend - If any of your preferred schools has an attached nursery and gives priority to children attending that nursery you may want to consider getting your child into that nursery. That apart, you don't need to do anything until autumn 2012 which is when you have to apply.

mrz, you and I both know that - but I suspect that there are parents out there who phone the school and then assume that they have somehow officially earmarked their LOs place.

I was trying to answer the OPs question about why so many parents seem to think they have found a way around the system (although it seems very unlikely that they actually have IYSWIM).

thank you prh

Was it the case in years gone by, and because some people didn't realise the process has changed they continue to believe that early registration gets a place?

If people have been told this, register early and their child happens to get a place then I imagine they will then tell others this is how it works.

But if a faith school requires X years of church attendance, and I think there are some which have special books to be signed each week rather than just a reference, then you might need to pre-register to get the paperwork to submit with your usual application.

And when you get to secondary around here you have to pre-register with grammar schools so that you can take the test!

With anomalies like this you can almost understand people not believing that being ahead of the game has no effect.

Schools do like to keep lists of parents who have expressed an interest in coming to the school for a number of reasons.
Firstly they will pass on the contact information to the LA so that letters and info can go out to the parents at the appropriate time. Secondly certainly in my school we contact all the parents about 2 or 3 weeks before the cut off date to just conform that they have filled in the form - its amazing how many haven't! Thirdly when places have been allocated the school can see how many who expressed an interest did actually turn that into a preference to attend the school.
The other useful thing an annual list fulfils is that it gives an early indication to the school of whether it is likely to be a small year group or whether they are likely to be over-subscribed.