when is the class size too small?

[foreverastudent]

The local newspaper has printed the photos of all the p1 classes of the schools in the area.

DS's current state primary class has 21 pupils in it. So that's my reference point, if you like.

What has surprised me is the sizes of the classes in the private schools. The big, well known hothouse one has 2 classes of 25 pupils (so bigger than most of the state schools). Then there is a girls school with 1 class of 17, which sounds fine. But there are 2 small private schools (one is a prep) where they have only 10/12 pupils (mostly boys).

Would other parents be concerned about sending their child, especially a girl, to a school where there are only 4/5 others of the same sex to make friends with?

mrz are you telling me that no SN child EVER gets left out in ANY school or just yours? Because in my experience ALL kids...not only those with SN need some help to ensure no others are excluded. Those with the kind of SN which make it harder to socialise do need some extra assistance and that should come from both sides.

What I'm saying is that in a large group if a child appears left out there is always someone who says "want to play" without adults needing to engineer the situation and if you visited you would struggle to pick out the children who find social interaction harder from other children.

I should also add in the real world people are left out and we need to learn how to deal with it.

Sorry my comment was taken so badly.

I have witnessed many mothers trying to control their children's friendships. IME it has often been based on social group or aspiration of the parent. I have, in fact, had a parent say that she didn't want her daughter getting friendly with another girl who was homeless and living in a B+B!

The point I was making is that children cannot be forced into friendships. They are socially discerning little people - you can 'encourage' them to include other children within their group (which, of course, an adult would do) but this rarely works if the child doesn't 'fit in' (for whatever reason).

The socially excluded will be noted by the teacher, and the child's parents and teacher will work together to improve his/her social skills (e.g. joining clubs, group work, special jobs, etc).

The point I'm trying to make is that in such a small group it is more difficult to make a wide range of friendships or even casual social interactions than it is in a larger social mix.

Good God, when I was teaching I used to dream of having a class with about 25 in. The hardest class I ever taught was 34 Y6's, 22 of whom were boys. By the end of the year they had outgrown the class, the tables, the chairs, each other and every day was a nightmare of refereeing!

20-24 is the perfect number in my opinion. Fewer than 20 would mean not enough mixture and variety for the children.

IME around 20 is good.

Fewer than 15 is not so good and over 25 is not so good.

Xpost Aries

Oh well....nothings erfect and our "arranging" has come about perhaps because of the small group. I still don't believe though Mrz that a left out child will be lucky enough for a kid to ask "want to play" ...6 year olds are like little sociopaths....they see a kid on it's own and ignore it...they don't often have the sensitivity to include...not without some prior encouragement.

Our social engineering is nothing to do with aspiration as we're all friends together. Which is a very nice feeling.

My son's reception class is 10, half boys, half girls. I don't think its too small at all. Some of the state schools in villages around here only have four or five which I find too small. Looking at the photos in the local paper one class had three!

I work in a primary school and its got over 400 pupils. KS1 classes all have 29/30 pupils and ks2 can have up to 35- which is too many! I think that between 20-25 would be great!

I agree Aries my ideal class would be low 20s.

Formash I probably have a lot more experience of 6 year olds than you do having taught in primary schools for 20+ years so it really doesn't matter whether you believe me or not I know what happens in our playgrounds.

LAst years reception at DD's state primary had 7, this year her class is 20 which is the maximum intake.

DS's Year 2 class has 17 in it - 11 boys and 6 girls. Seems to be an all right amount.

DD's reception class has 11 in it at the moment - 3 girls and 8 boys. There will be more after Christmas though.

I think that you need at least 16 but not more than 24 for the ideal and you need a fairly equal mix of boys and girls.
I think that mothers ought to stay right out of friendships except to encourage by inviting to tea etc. Children need to learn for themselves how to make friends and how to be a good friend. They are largely very fair. Parents who think they can engineer things will find they are mistaken in a few years time. Parents cannot control-and a good thing too IMO.

Formash I probably have a lot more experience of 6 year olds than you do having taught in primary schools for 20+ years so it really doesn't matter whether you believe me or not I know what happens in our playgrounds.

Sorry mrz....but your attempt to devalue what I believe by coming out with twaddle like that is laughable! You do not know what my profession is....so you can in no way judge my ability to "know what happen in playgrounds"

Pisces...I would not be so naieve to think that we can continue to "engineer" things...they will probably tell us "no...I don't want to play with x on Saturday" when they are a bit older....but atm it's fine and works great.

OK Forsmash how many 6 year olds have you encountered in the past 12 months?
A good school will have dealt with all the "sociopathic" (your words) children well before the age of 6 It's what we teach in nursery. Interesting with so few children your child's school hasn't

Personally, I would be very unhappy about my dd being in a class of only 10 or 12 pupils. She is a very sociable little girl who benefits from her friendships with a wide range of people - and although she is only five, I happen to think that it is important for her to have a reasonably wide social circle. Learning to deal with a wide range of different people is crucial, in my view, for the development of good social skills.

I don't believe that six year olds are like little sociopaths at all, and if this is how they behave, then I would suggest that the school is doing something wrong. I have been delighted by the very positive and inclusive ethos fostered at my dd's school, and although there are 28 kids in her class, this hasn't stopped her from forging very positive relationships with the older and younger pupils in her school. I think a lot depends on how things are managed, and on the philosophy and approach of the school.

I also feel that it's inappropriate, by the age of six, for parents to interfere too much in their kids' friendships - children need to learn how to manage these things for themselves. On the whole, I find that they manage quite well actually.

I think that you can do it at 6 yrs, but it becomes more difficult by 7 yrs and virtually impossible after that. As adults we like or get on with some people better than others and children are the same.

I find that they manage well on their own and are very fair and caring. I don't think it wise to stick lables on them.

i live in northern ireland and many of teh country primarys only have maybe 6/7 in teh class. tehre were 5 in my class throughout primary. it was hard because only two of us were girls and we hated each other.

sorry-dyslexic typing-labels!

booooooooooyhoo my experience was very similar to yours and has probably coloured my view. For most of my primary life there were 3 children in my year group (although we had mixed classes - 30 children in the whole school) so when I moved to a much larger school at age 11 I found it extremely difficult at first to break into established friendship groups.

oh for flips sake! Obviously the us of "Sociopath" was an exaggeration...a fippant use...but I forgot that here on MN one must SPELL EVERYTHING out as if talking in bloody court!

I still stand by what I say...and Pisces you can't possibly say "You can do it at 6 and not at 7"

Because all kids are different. We're not over protective parents...nor do we try to climb any social ladders...we encourage our kids to play in a group as it suits the size of the class....their school is a very tight knit community...all the kids know one another and participate together. I feel very lucky to be at such a place...far nicer for small children than some huge institution.

mrz I wont enter some competition with you about how many 6 year old's I have encountered over the past 12 months....talk about schoolyard antics!

Mine are older and I have watched them change. (not just mine but all the neighbourhood DCs). For ages we managed to keep NCT groups going, but by 5 yrs they were not wanting to be part of the group. At 6 yrs I could get together with my friends and the DCs would play but it simply didn't work after that unless they really liked the DC.
They made their own friends.
I think that a huge disadvantage of small classes is having the mothers sort out friendships.It is like the whole class party idea-something to be avoided.