Want a few opinions please

[jonicomelately]

If a teacher described your sensitive DS' art work as rubbish and threw it in the bin wwyd.

Since then he's been less interested in school and I wonder if there's a connection.

that should have said 'teachers have a right to have high expectations'

"So it's ok behind their backs is it?"

Well of course it is.

The value of not throwing the work away is in the message it gives the children and how that message tells them their work is valuable. It improves their confidence and self esteem. Throwing their work in the bin in front of them does the opposite.

At the end of the academic year, they get the choice to take it home or it goes 'into storage'. Then you chuck the uncollected work in the bin because it contains no value and its purpose has been served.

I have worked for many years with children with behavioural problems who 'weren't trying' and 'were mucking about'. Putting their work in the bin in front of them is just about the least effective punishment I could think of, and is actually counter productive.

By the way, if by 'swearing' you mean 'bloody', it is a word used to give a colloquial impact to any phrase. I could use a different word such as 'fucking', or omitted it completely, albeit then altering the tone of my post. As swearing is permitted on MN I use it liberally. Please avert thine eyes if 'bloody' offends

"It is highly unlikely that a teacher would behave so ruthlessly to a child in this day and age, the parent needs to get the FULL story from the teacher"

I think it is totally unrealistic to try to make assumptions on what one individual teacher might have done on the basis of what teachers in general are like or what teachers are told in training that they ought to be like

teachers are human beings- they are not all as good as one another

I have a very high opinion of teachers in general which is confirmed by individual teachers every year

but I have also heard things straight from the mouths of other teachers which have made my hair stand on end

because they are individuals, and even with the best of training you can not absolutely guarantee that there will never be a case of individuals getting it wrong

"highly unlikely in this day and age" didn't help my dd when the school decided to break the law in the way it treated her as a disabled student (and actually went and wrote things on her school report which made it clear what had happened)

but of course it does not mean that I expect other schools, at other times, to behave equally badly- nor indeed that they have

just that I know that things can go wrong

Teth -
Oh dear, it appears you have neither the wit nor intelligence to express yourself effectively without swearing. Resorting to swearing for colloquial impact is a sad excuse for a lack of vocabulary!

Your other remarks contain a generalised error. Children may be given the choice to take it home at your school, but they are not at ours. In the context you describe whereby the children choose not to take it home then they have made the decision. If they do not get the choice, then the work is being disposed of without their permission, and this, in my opinion, is NOT ok. I'm talking about workbooks full of creative writing and lovely pictures that are unceremoniously dumped in skips.

I'm certain that a child knows when they have not tried, and it's embarassing for them to have it pointed out to them. Such teachers often are brilliant at getting good quality work out of children though.

When you put 'weren't trying' and 'mucking about' into inverted commas are you tring to say these sorts of behaviour don't exist? As far as the OP has described, her/his child does not have any behavioural difficulties but is probably, like most pupils the world over, capable of mucking about and not trying. Quite rightly a teacher is entitled to expect better. Surely parents want teachers to make sure their children are fulfilling their potential?

*trying

"Oh dear, it appears you have neither the wit nor intelligence to express yourself effectively without swearing. Resorting to swearing for colloquial impact is a sad excuse for a lack of vocabulary!"

Aha, that old chestnut. Yup. Ignore my argument because it contains the word 'bloody'. This is an internet forum, not a secondary school debating team. I may even say 'bollocks' at some point.

Am impressed that you are able to ascertain my IQ through a post on the internet though. Have you ever thought of teaching?

"Your other remarks contain a generalised error. Children may be given the choice to take it home at your school, but they are not at ours."

I think you may have an issue which you would like to take up with your school. Schools dispose of work because they have nowhere to put it. If they are not offering you the chance to take it home, say something. I do not believe that you are advocating schools keeping every exercise book for decades on end. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"When you put 'weren't trying' and 'mucking about' into inverted commas are you tring to say these sorts of behaviour don't exist?"

Eh? I'm not sure how you got that. I'm merely pointing out that 'not trying' (a subjective and often inaccurate value judgement on the teacher's behalf, but that's another thread) and 'mucking about' (again, subjective and open to interpretation) are no justification for throwing a child's work in the bin in front of them as a punishment. All that will achieve is to further damage said child's self confidence and most likely exacerbate their challenging or disruptive behaviour.

throwing a child's work in the bin is bullying and crap teaching

Teth
Well, by putting them into inverted commas it comes across as churlish, as if you believe children can't help mucking about or being lazy in class. However a skilled teacher can tell the difference between a bright child being lazy and a child who struggles but is doing their best. That teacher would treat the two situations differently and quite rightly so. (I am a teacher an once had a TA who did this to a child in reception. I was quite shocked, being a relatively new teacher. However the little boy produced a very nice drawing after that. I realise this doesn't make it necessarily the right thing to do.)

The OP describes the situation as FACT even though she wasn't present when it happened. It may be absolutely true, but she needs to speak to the teacher as well to get the full picture - mixed in with a bit of mother's intuition as to whether the teacher and child are being honest.

Of course teachers have to make subjective judgements all the time. Your own judgement is subjective. Stating the obvious does not make an argument, and subjective judgements in the classroom are not necessarily wrong. Children WILL muck about sometimes, and they don't bother trying sometimes, but it isn't always going to be because they lack confidence or have issues. These sorts of blanket assumptions lead to low expectations and achievement overall.

I would never chuck their work in the bin in front of them, only because it would jar with my own teaching style; but I have made children start again if I don't think they've made much effort.

"by putting them into inverted commas it comes across as churlish, as if you believe children can't help mucking about or being lazy in class."

I just wouldn't use those terms to describe behaviour, as they are incredibly emotive- after all, you wouldn't use them in an incident report or official documentation of a child's behaviour.

"produced a very nice drawing after that."

Well, this tells me all I need to know about your skills as an art teacher; I am sure you are far more skilled than me in other areas, but the idea that binning a child's work improves their outcome is absurd. There is no evidence of improvement, refinement or process within the work as the original is in the bin. Thus, their NC level is lower. But hey, a 'nice drawing' was produced.

"but I have made children start again if I don't think they've made much effort."

You cannot ever know how much effort another human being is making. I produced a thesis on the inaccuracy of teacher assessed effort grades; I was surprised at the difference on average between pupils' own and teacher assessed effort grades for a given task. It was huge.

Even bright children struggle. For some it's an effort just to get to school, as I'm sure you know.

'However a skilled teacher can tell the difference between a bright child being lazy and a child who struggles but is doing their best."

I disagree. They like to think that they can, but this is not reliably true IME. Either way, throwing their work away is not the answer.

Whatever you may think about ascertaining effort, please stop making children start work again without documenting the process. It sets them up for a lower GCSE grade as they continue to bin work and 'start again' out of habit.

Teth

I'm afraid you are coming across as a serious apologist for disruptive behaviour in class; you may not want to confront this fact but it is attitudes like yours which are responsible for a raft of problems in schools today. I am not a secondary but a primary teacher, and if a child is not putting in their best effort, I will make them do their best even if that means starting again. Then I will praise them. Rather than undermining their confidence it brings out their full potential; both they and their parents are proud of what they can achieve. I rarely need to do this anyway, because the pupils know that I have high expectations but at the same time, am fair.
You may have written a thesis on it, but if a child is mucking about, being silly and chatting in a lesson and then produces a below-par piece of work then it is pretty obvious to anyone, not just the teacher, that they have not put much effort into it. That's not subjective opinion; that's observation of the facts.

Whatever you think of teachers, and you seem to have a very low opinion of them, the majority want the best for their pupils, the disadvantaged ones too. It is not doing them any favours to make excuses for poor behaviour. It may tick all the boxes for OFSTED but it does nothing to help these kids. If you think you are better at judging situations I suggest you walk a mile in a teacher's shoes, rather than sit on the sidelines sniping at their inadequate, (in your eyes) subjective opinions.

bull

You haven't a clue.

"if a child is not putting in their best effort, I will make them do their best even if that means starting again."

Doing your best in art means never starting again unless you document it. That's not my opinion, it's the national curriculum's.

I am sure you are an excellent teacher, high expectations and all. This does not make you a good art teacher. In fact, I think it is virtually impossible for a primary school teacher to be a good art teacher unless they are art trained themselves.

"You may have written a thesis on it, but if a child is mucking about, being silly and chatting in a lesson and then produces a below-par piece of work then it is pretty obvious to anyone, not just the teacher, that they have not put much effort into it. That's not subjective opinion; that's observation of the facts."

There are no facts in what you have just written- it is pure conjecture. I sincerely hope you do not write any official documentation about children's behaviour in this manner.

Imagine a child who is abused at home, has had no breakfast and has to wake himself up to get to school. He has missed the bus and walked in. He was late, he got told off. The other kids told him he smells. he is now 'mucking about', 'being silly' and 'chatting' in class as it is making the other kids laugh and he likes the attention. He is starving hungry, cannot see the point in the work, yet he does a drawing. Not put much effort in? Are you having a laugh, or do you just not teach these children?

"It is not doing them any favours to make excuses for poor behaviour."

These are reasons, not 'excuses'. This tells me you have little experience of teaching children with serious behavioural difficulties. Unfortunately, many mainstream teachers share your view.

"If you think you are better at judging situations I suggest you walk a mile in a teacher's shoes, rather than sit on the sidelines sniping at their inadequate, (in your eyes) subjective opinions."

Err... have you read any of my posts? I am a teacher, and have been for many years. Does that count?

Ah, but what about the child who has had a nutritious breakfast, been dropped off at the school gate by mummy, is popular and happy, but decides that he/she is not going to try hard today because they don't particularly like the task set. Usually they produce masterpieces, but today, it's something akin to cat-sick on the page.

No teacher denies the existence of children with behavioural difficulties and difficult homelives. However, there are some children for whom these excuses cannot be made - they just don't want to try today thankyou very much.

Nowhere have I said that that doesn't happen, Galena.

I am simply pointing out the potential inaccuracy of teacher-assessed pupil effort.

Besides, making even the child you describe start again without documenting the process is to hamper his artistic achievement.

And to assess his effort is a subjective value judgement, even if you're right.

You cannot accurately measure effort.

Tee hee... I am art trained. I have a degree in art.

Conjecture? WITNESSING a child not actually getting on with the task in hand? How much more evidence would you need if your were the teacher?!

For the record, you are right. I do not have the training to teach children with serious behavioural difficulties. However, in case you hadn't noticed, the OP does not appear to have a child with these problems. So behavioural difficulties aren't part of the equation in this particular scenario. Anyway, believe it or not, children are capable of messing about in class - for no other reason than that they can. They need to learn to take responsibility for their actions and their learning, for their own benefit as well as the others in their class.

We are obviously arguing from completely different perspectives. Your experiences are of working with children with tough backgrounds, I've had a few but not so many. I DO know, however, that they need a good education and that school, free of charge at point of delivery, should be their ticket to success.

'You cannot accurately measure effort'

No, but the teacher is best-placed to make an INFORMED judgement, as they are present in the class observing the children.

In the case of the art-work, I would notice if they'd concentrated really hard, and got on with the task in hand. The result wouldn't matter. We are not talking about artistic merit here, we are talking about a pupil trying their very best.

So Teth, do you think that the children themselves are going to make an accurate measurement of their own effort, being as it is subjective? If you don't rate a teacher's subjective assessment, how can you be comparing it to the child's? Surely by your reasoning they're both invalid?
And what are the odds that most children will say they made a huge effort?

"Tee hee... I am art trained. I have a degree in art."

Oh dear. Then why on earth would you get a child to start work again without documenting the process, knowing that it is an assessment objective? How odd.

"Conjecture? WITNESSING a child not actually getting on with the task in hand? How much more evidence would you need if your were the teacher?!"

"I would notice if they'd concentrated really hard, and got on with the task in hand."

You observed his lack of concentration, his 'off task behaviour' not his effort. You can only observe the observable, measure the measurable. Grading other people's effort is an exercise in futility.

"Your experiences are of working with children with tough backgrounds, I've had a few but not so many."

I have experience in mainstream, SEN and EBD schools, teaching children with a wide variety of needs and abilities. CV available on request

The behaviour of the OP's child has no bearing on his work being thrown in the bin in front of him, as this would be an inappropriate course of action for any child.

"I DO know, however, that they need a good education and that school, free of charge at point of delivery, should be their ticket to success."

To assert that I am arguing against this premise is bizarre.

"So Teth, do you think that the children themselves are going to make an accurate measurement of their own effort, being as it is subjective? If you don't rate a teacher's subjective assessment, how can you be comparing it to the child's? Surely by your reasoning they're both invalid?
And what are the odds that most children will say they made a huge effort?"

Oh yes, effort grading, even self assessed is pointless as it is impossible to standardise.

I don't see that grading effort serves any useful purpose.

People do tend to have a better grasp of their own feelings than others though.

Teth

Let's get down to the nitty gritty. The work was thrown in the bin in front of the child, and we both established much earlier on that we thought this was inappropriate.(If it did indeed happen as described)

Ah, it feels good to agree on something, even if we disagree on so many others.

Goodnight.

We agreed on that looong ago

Goodnight.

Even kids from good backgrounds can have had shit things happen to them - some might sound minor to an adult, some are enormous. A teacher presumes to know a child - knows nothing - over night a child can be abused, can have experienced an enormous fight between their parents, can have beem subjected to physical violence for the first time - tearing work up as a teaching method is seriously shit - and yes I'll be intellectually limited and swear too - because I can .

Tearing anyone's work up - is unacceptable because it doesn't belong to anyone but the creator. Bullethead you come across as a bit of a bully - I really hope you are a little more human when you teach.

It's almost not worth deigning to reply to you, excess; Teth actually had arguments with substance. However you are clearly
unaware that tearing up work and throwing it in the bin in front of a child has been mostly abhorred on this thread by parents and teachers alike. We don't know if that is what happened though, do we - so there's absolutely no need to start getting your knickers in a twist about it until the OP, who seems to have vanished, reports back on what the teacher's side of the story is.

Unless problems are flagged up for us by parents or the school SENCO it is not always easy to spot a problem, but usually, any behviour that is out of the ordinary for a particular child is a sign that something could be wrong. Believe it or not, we do try our best for all the children - and having high expectations, whatever their background is our job. We are there to educate them so that they can reach their full potential. It would be letting them down not to. Parents would be the first to complain about sloppy work being ignored, and they would be right.