does good handwriting really matter? (as long as it's legible, i mean?)

[LadySanders]

ds1 is in year 5 - he's dyslexic, so getting anything at all written down is a real struggle but he has made great progress over the last year.

his handwriting is completely legible but not very pretty - he is hampered by school's insistence on joined up writing rather than printing which for some reason they will not be flexible on.

he is now upset because he is being sent to a lunchtime handwriting club to improve his writing so that he can move on to using a pen rather than a pencil. he sees this as a punishment because lessons are already hard enough without him having to work all through lunch as well.

i see it as totally bloody pointless because as long as his writing can be read, beautiful calligraphy is frankly the least of his worries, and is a totally irrelevant skill.

any thoughts? if i'm missing something i'll be glad to know?

there is some theory about joined up writing helping with spelling - not sure how it works or if I believe it - but maybe it is something to do with physically learning the rhythm of a word.

It is really so much harder using a pen rather than a pencil ? I can see that when I was young and pens were ink pens - but with biros and other tips now surely they aren't so different ?

I would talk to the school - at the least they need to find a way for him to value the lunchtime thing - otherwise as you say it just becomes perceived as a punishment. I personally think kids should be running around at lunch break - not more sitting around in classes catching up on things they didn't manage in the class time.

yes the school used the argument about the joined up writing helping spelling - which is why they won't budge on it - my view, and his dyslexia tutor's view is that if he prints he can see more clearly what he's written and therefore is more likely to spot errors (he's typical dyslexic in that he can spell much better on a computer keyboard than in writing, for instance).

agree on the inkpen/biro thing.

i suppose what i'm saying is that i feel i have to pick my 'battles' carefully, and i'm not sure whether it's worth having this one or not... appreciate your perspective, thank you

I think they need to reconsider the detention aspect of this handwriting club - it could be held at another time of day, perhaps during one of the week's literacy lessons or something else, but not deprive a child, particularly one who stuggles, of the easy part of his day!

If the school were to provide the materials for a handwriting scheme would you be able to support your DS at home for 10 minutes a day instead? something like this might be worth a try?

My DS same age crap handwriting (hypermobile esp in fingers) and does handwriting club but it as soon as he arrives on a monday morning instead of assembly. He would take a very dim view of doing it at lunchtime......

It migth be worth getting someone from the Dyslexic association to help on this - if it's not helping him to improve his handwriting and if it's stressing him out when he already finds it difficult, it is going to make him worse, not better.
It's going to make him hate going to school and hate learning.
How on earth do they think it's helping him?

I think this is definitely a battle you want to pick.
:(

se13 that looks like a great idea, thank you, will get it and try

VV and nickel - thanks also, as i said, i have had so many issues with school over the dyslexia generally that i really needed to get an objective view as i don't want to be up there every 5 minutes complaining but this one has really made me feel sorry for ds1 giving up his beloved lunchtime play which is the best part of the day for him

Definitely a battle you want to fight. Feeling quite angry for you and your son.

Yes, speaking as a secondary school teacher, it hampers pupils if their writing isn't legible, but anything beyond that (even at secondary level) is, i think, just for decoration. (But then I'm a science teacher, so maybe my views are slightly slanted. I'm much more concerned with work that demonstrates understanding than work that looks neat!). (I do also understand that working on handwritingis not simply about 'looking nice' and there are reasons beyond this for what they are trying to do).

Agree with offering to do something at home, maybe as a kind of compromise. And because I suppose we have to believe that there's some point to it, or they wouldn't be doing it. But he definitely shouldn't be 'punished' and miss out on lunchtime play. Terrible!

My DS is dyspraxic and has terrible handwriting. It is legible now, after 6 yrs of schooling but it isn't joined up. They aren't too worried about that at school though. The school also gave him his handwriting certificate last term as otherwise he would have been the odd child out. It wasn't about reaching a particular standard, more about having made sufficient improvement.

I do think it is a bit daft making your DS persevere with the joined up handwriting though. I can't see it makes that much difference to spelling - DS's teacher said last week he was a good speller although I know nothing about dyslexia so maybe it helps with that.

I think the reason they aren't allowed to use pen is because it can't be corrected or erased as easily as pencil, nothing to do with being easier to use.

DS's occuaptional therapist recommended these workbooks. Would the school let you work on handwriting at home and allow DS to drop the lunchtime thing?

Seems a bit mean to make him stay in when he should be outside letting off steam.

I agree it is pointless - typing is a much more important skill these days. I wouldn't mind betting that most of us hardly write anything except a shopping list these days.

I do know that handwriting accounts for 4/60 marks on the literacy SATS though so maybe they are fretting about that!

he's at a private school so i don't think the SATS is an issue... i will talk to his teacher this afternoon and see if we can reach a deal on the h/w club.

i need to see her anyway since he got told off for not doing the right homework yesterday - ach, last year we had it all sussed with a teacher who accepted that his dyslexia means there is no hope of him remembering what the homework is unless he is helped to write down specific instructions, but evidently i now need to explain this all over again to his new teacher...

Well not having to do SATs is something anyway!

I've just accepted now that I have to see every new teacher at the beginning of the school year. They get told the barest minimum by the old teacher - 'So and so has xyz' but not what that actually means day to day. It is a pain but at least you get to have your say early on and tell them the bits that you think are most important.

Not sure what I am going to do next year though when DS starts secondary and lots of different teachers!

Good luck this afternoon.

Personally, I think that joined writing is overrated, especially now you have accepted that he is never going to win the calligraphy prize.. As he goes up the school and possibly into higher education, more and more work will be typed anyway. So I wouldn't worry too much about secondary school. FWIW, my son was taught joined writing in about P3 but reverted to printing and no-one in secondary ever mentioned it.

I too have heard that joined writing assists spelling because of some kind of motor memory, but I would take this with a large pinch of salt for 2 reasons.

1 It implies that spelling is possible without engaging the brain.

2 For your hand to remember the feel of a word, you would have had to have spelled it correctly dozens of times already.

Good luck this afternoon.

I agree with you OP - as long as he can write legibly, I don't see what else matters APART from speed. Are you absolutely sure the lunchtime thing isn't there to improve his speed, or that they're thinking joined-up = faster writing? Because that really does matter in exams.

thanks everyone

hassled, no they've specifically said it's to improve the look of his writing... they make a big deal about 'awarding' a pen to kids when their writing reaches a certain standard... ds1 couldn't care less about pens/status but there we go!

As long as he's not got an awful pencil grip - to be honest, I'd not be worried too much if it's legible. I've been very naughty in the past and not pushed the school handwriting style onto kids who've got really legible handwriting and who I think would have really really regressed if forced to join up (with parental backing on that one). I've taught the joins during handwriting time - but not gone down the road of "thou shalt join up all the time" because I'd rather them be able to write clearly than feel like their writing was scruffy when it gets stuck in the plate of spaghetti phase. Depends on the child though and it's only ever been one or two I've taken that approach with.

On the other hand - if he's like my husband with attrocious writing and a dreadful pencil grip - I'd push hard on holding pens correctly because hubby complains to this day about how physically uncomfortable writing is to him - and when you see how he holds a pen and contorts his hand - it's no wonder!

I was the little sod who refused to join up all the way through primary school by the way - to this day, my cursive "teacher writing" is shit and I tell kids quite honestly that I don't like my handwriting (and that I'm really jealous of theirs) and why mine's so bad.

Incidentally - the guidance from last year's Y6 SATs marker training about handwriting marks in the tests (just in case school or you were worrying on that front), from my notes on the training day (I mark KS2 English) "Fluency does not mean joined" with about four asterisks after it so they must have stressed it quite heavily!

my dh and FIL both have awful handwriting, but they are both extremely clever and have excelled in their chosen careers. My ds1 has pretty bad handwritting, but he gets in a flap if you try and help, i think i'll put it down to genetics and hope that he comes out okay at the other side

It is writing speed that matters - and joined -up can be faster. It does not matter now, in Grade 5, but it does matter in Y12 if writing examination papers in 3 hours.
If you can print fast and legibly then that is ok, but it seems this child can do neither. The school is offering a time to improve this skill but you as they say, you can lead a horse to water...

he can print legibly, as i said in my OP, and
he can print as fast as he can write joined up

and he has not been 'offered' the chance to give up his lunchtime, he has been informed that he is doing so.

Because of his dyslexia he already has to take considerably longer to do his homework than other kids, and has to do an extra hour tuition before school one day a week with extra homework. all of this he does with amazing good grace and discipline, so the snide remark about leading a horse to water is really not appreciated.

I might have agreed with Malaleuca?s first sentence had I not been at secondary school with a girl who had never been taught joined writing in primary school, so never did learn it. It didn?t stop her getting 8 good O levels (no coursework in those days) or 3 A grades at A level (virtually unknown in 1971) or a first class honours degree from a Russell Group university.

It's unreasonable to make the children give up lunchtime. Firstly, children need that time to let off steam and do something other than desk-based work, and secondly, it's effectively giving him detention for having dyslexia.

If they must do it, then something like the system VictorVictoria's DS follows where the children miss assembly would seem more sensible. But if the dyslexia specialist thinks that continuing to print will be more beneficial than enforcing joined up writing then it seems daft for the school to insist on joining up.

The school really ought to be more pragmatic about this.

OTOH ds (Y5, dypsraxic, could barely write at all despite reading well) finally started to get the hang of joined up writing late last term and it has really, really helped. It is still early days but at least there is some kind of flow now when he writes, albeit an interrupted one ("how do I join t to f?" and so on)

Not being able to write (or type) fluently is such a barrier imo - when you're writing an assignment you might have a plan already, but the process of writing is kind of circular. I know I'm wording this badly but essentially being able to get your ideas down as soon as you have them, helps you to deveop them. Or spout drive

Gah. In a nutshell, ds can now write way faster now he's stopped printing. I find the same as an adult - it takes at least twice as long to print a word as to scrawl it.

drivel even.

Oh FGS. DRIVEL.

It is mean to make him miss lunchbreak btw.

For children who have very poor printing, changing to joined-up presents a window when it is possible to replace existing habitual motor patterns. I've seen it time and again. Poor printing often stems from children beginning letters at the wrong start point.

If child becomes more skilful at writing he may not dislike it so much. The time offered may not be the best, but I should not dismiss being able to write easily, even attractively, which takes practice, as an irrelevance.

Dyslexia is to do with poor reading not poor handwriting.

Doing Handwriting practice in lunchtime is not fair - if school thinks it's important than they should provide time for him to do it during the day. Or set it as homework instead of some other homework.

Secondly - are they actually teaching him handwriting - or just making do lots of practice of badly photocopied worksheets. The two suggestions you have been given (Speed Up and Write From The Start) are both excellent at improving handwriting. I'm not convinced that just doing extra worksheets (which my boy was expected to do...) will actually help...

Fight this battle.