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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

Maths Sets

31 replies

Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 13:07

How should maths sets be decided? My ds has problems with his concentration, he is inattentive, and with his coordination, but his maths ability is actually good. He saw an educational psychologist last year for his concentration issues who tested his verbal, non verbal, numeracy etc. He scored 96th percentile for non verbal skills and 99th percentile for his numeracy. Also he performs well in maths tests at school, it is quiet and there are less distractions. However year on year he is kept in the bottom set. When we enquire why, we are told its because he isn't concentrating, and he has problems using a ruler and drawing and doesn't sit up straight.

I think this is preventing him reaching his full potential in maths as in the bottom set they spend longer on each topic, and don't go as far in their learning. I feel so frustrated but as long as ds is like this and this doesn't look likely to change considerably in the near future he is stuck there. Am I being unreasonable to think they should find a way to support him at a higher set so that he can cover the maths he is capable of.

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 21/09/2010 13:20

Well, if he doesn't concentrate then how do you suggest they should support him? Sit beside him the whole time to keep him focussed?

How about you find ways at home of improving his attention span, so that he can progress faster when he is in school?

The "not sitting up straight" does sound like an odd reason for keeping him on a lower set though, as do the other coordination issues. I would certainly talk to the teacher about why those kinds of issues are being used to decide which set he is in.

IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 13:23

Did the school refer him to the Ed Psych or was it private? If the school referred him than they obviously have concerns. Is he on the SEN register?

Sounds like he should be on the SEN register and his problems with concentration etc should be taken into account - or helped though some other way.

The symptoms you describe could be pointing to quite a few things? Have you got any suspicions / ideas?

For example he might need OT to help him across the board. But he shouldn't be 'penalised' in maths for non-maths related problems.

Go and talk to his class teacher or the SENCO.

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 13:27

Well his concentration issues were mild according to the EP and of course I work on it at home with him, but there are no miracle cures. Anyway the EP had a whole raft of suggestions gore support none of which are being used.

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IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 13:32

Good. Now you have a starting point.

The EP has made recommendations and the school has ignored them. Discuss with the SENCO your concerns and ask why none of this has been done and what do they plan to do to help your child reach his potential.

There is an awful lot you and school can do for concentration - depending what the cause is. You need to be trying to work out what the underlying cause is - rather than trying to treat the symptom.

Has he made the expected level of progress last year? Most kids are targeted at 2 sub levels of progress. If he hasn't met his targets than also bring this up at the SENCO meeting.

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 13:37

The school referred him to the Educational Psychologist, so yes they are concerned. The Educational Pyschologist said that the issues were developmental and related to maturity, whatever that means.

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IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 13:43

Sounds very wishy washy (as a lot of Ed Psych reports are)

I'm sorry - but you need to be a PITA mum and go and talk to the SENCO and really push things. Because it does sound like the school won't help him without you pushing them.

A lot of people find Omega Fish Oil helps with concentration.

My boy fidgets the whole time (part of dyspraxia) and uses a MoveNSit cushion in class and fidget toys which have really helped.

The whole 'sitting up straight' thing might be to do with dyspraxia - I think you should research this a bit and see whether it seems to fit your boy or not.

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 13:44

IB you seem to know a lot about this and I would be grateful for your advice. Please tell me a bit about treating the underlying causes rather than the symptoms. If the Educational Psychologist is correct and it's immaturity how do you treat that surely it's a matter of time and growing up.

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IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 13:54

If the Ed Psych is correct :)

When you read this do you think he might have dyspraxia?

Definitely start with Omega Fish Oil.

A 6 year old will only be able to concentrate for 4 - 8 minutes.

Does he fidget a lot?

Do you ever notice that he is better or worse at certain times?

He could have a hearing problem, a visual processing problem, be deficient in all sorts of minerals, have dyspraxia to name a few.

Or yes - he could just be immature. In which case you just need to wait till he grows up. But what if he doesn't grow out of it? - then you'll be a year or two worse than where you are now....

So don't panic. But do investigate and research.

IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 14:03

For the sitting up straight he needs to do 10 minutes occupational therapy exercises every day to strengthen his core muscles :)

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 14:06

I think dyspraxia is a possibility, but I still don't think his maths should suffer because of this. Also from doing some online reading about this it doesn't seem there are any cure alls. What have you found that has really helped your dc to focus?

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Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 14:09

Ds actually does a lot of sports not anything requiring too much coordination, but gym club, climbing club, swimming and ju jitsu.

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IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 14:14

Of course his Maths shouldn't suffer. That's why you need to talk to school :)

Ask this over on the SN thread and you will get lots of help.

For dyspraxia you need to be working with an OT. My OT also came into school and gave the teachers loads of tips - and the MoveNSit cushion and fidget toys.

You might also want to do Sensory Integration Training. Loads of other things....

Depends exactly what his problems are.

Dyspraxia is a wide diagnosis and so he may have some problems and not others. You will also need a dx from a pead / OT. So ask your GP to refer you to a pead.

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 14:20

Thanks I will do that. He has been seeing an OT since the school raised their concerns, he is a specialist in si not seeing any improvements yet, it's been about 5 months but we're sticking with it.

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IndigoBell · 21/09/2010 14:29

Is he doing daily exercises to strengthen his back muscles? They should help...

jollyma · 21/09/2010 20:51

You speak about his maths as your main concern but does he have difficulties with all subjects at school? Do they use any strategies to help him focus on other things. Would your OT be prepared to put some pressure on school to implement some strategies?

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 21/09/2010 21:40

He doesn't have difficulties with maths that's why I'm upset about this, he is above average for all his subjects. He doesn't concentrate well and has coordination difficulties but he's very bright. I just don't want him to be held back because of this ESP in maths where he has a real aptitude.

OP posts:
IndigoBell · 22/09/2010 11:01

ItsAllKickingOff - There is no kind way to say this so I'm going to be blunt - and I'm only talking from my limited experience relating to my son....

But if your son has dyspraxia then his whole life will be affected. Including the subjects he is academically good at.

My son, like yours, does really well in EP tests and non-verbal reasoning etc. However he is doing average or below in all his subjects.

This is because he does not perform in class, and especially in tests, anywhere near his potential. If you did a test with him verbally at home he can score 2 levels above what he does in the classroom.

Apparently he has difficulties 'accessing learning in the classroom' :)

What you need to do now is:

  • Meet with the SENCO and find out what they think and what they are doing to help him
  • Try and get a dx for him
  • Focus really hard on sorting out the symptoms he currently has
  • Do 10 minutes occupational therapy with him every day

You have the advantage over me in that your child is only 6. If you do as much as you can to sort out his dyspraxia now you might make huge progress in the next 2 - 3 years.

As he is very bright he won't have any trouble catching up and overtaking his peers when he is 8 or 9 or 10 if the underlying problems are improved as much as possible.

But yes - if you don't sort out his dyspraxia - his maths will suffer. Absolutely. No way round it.

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 22/09/2010 13:09

I understand what your saying and perhaps he will start to suffer in the classroom. However at present in the classroom not just in ep tests he is above average he got level 3 s for his sats. I think what the school doesn't like is he needs more prompting more reminding, and more motivating which is more work for them. But there is the underlying assumption from yourself and others that children like this must be less academically able and should be achieving less, that in itself can be limiting.

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Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 22/09/2010 13:12

Sorry just saw that you thought he was 6, he is 7.

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Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 22/09/2010 13:15

He actually does really well in classroom tests and can focus really well in class test conditions. I think this is because it is quiet and calm.

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IndigoBell · 22/09/2010 14:20

No - I am definitely not assuming that he is less academically able (and I never said anything like that). I am saying the exact opposite. That no matter how bright he is if he cannot sit still, concentrate, and write for the required amount of time he will not pass his tests.

It's great that he got 3s in his SATS. And it's great that he can focus really well in class test conditions. Maybe he is nothing like my boy and the advice I have been giving you is all wrong :)

All I can say is that I didn't know there were any problems with my boy at the end of Year 2. But now at the end of Year 4 he has made no progress since Year 2. More is expected of kids in the juniors than in the infants.

TBH - I think probably he is not like my boy and you can disregard all my advice :) Especially if your boys handwriting is fine.

jollyma · 23/09/2010 20:35

Its interesting that he managed level 3's. Did school give him support or did he manage it because it was quiet? If he managed it independently they need to justify why he is working in a low ability group. I'm wondering how he reached that level working in a low group. Do you input a lot at home or do they give him high ability work but with the support of the ta who sits with the low ability group. School have a responsibility to give him appropriate work. I'd also suggest a meeting w the senco asap.

minimathsmouse · 23/09/2010 20:58

Hi Itsallkickingoff, don't disregard what Indigo has said about dyspraxia.

Dyspraxia effects co-ordination and fine motor skills. It can effect handwriting, using a ruler, pencil grip etc,

You say that your son scores highly in test conditions when all is calm and quiet. You also mention that he struggles to concentrate, so I am asuming that he struggles with background noise? Is that right?

My DS G&T Maths (age 9, working at GCSE), AS tendencies, mild dyspraxia symptoms. Can not ride a bike, swim etc, very bright but can not perform well with background noise. He can not concentrate in a noisy classroom.

Does your DS enjoy the social aspect of school? Does your son like to work on his own? Does he enjoy group work activities?

Original poster
Itsallkickingoff · 23/09/2010 23:06

Ds is a bit different, not sure how to put it apart from this. He is however sociable and doesn't seem to lack friends. He enjoys school clubs and some individual sports but not team sports. I did some work not lots at home to extend him a bit. I can't keep doing this forever. At the moment he tells me he is finishing all his work v quickly as so easy and being told to read a book for the rest of the lesson. I guess it is easier for the school to have him do lessons he can do standing on his head. Ds does find background classroom noise distracting. So the school thinks he gets extra attention in bottom set, I think the school should cater for his needs while also catering for his ability in maths.

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IndigoBell · 24/09/2010 08:00

Minimathsmouse - have you ever had your son tested for hypersensitive hearing ( hypercaucus)? My son had this and it meant that it was actually painful for him to be in a noisy classroom. (like fingernails down a blackboard sound is painful for most people).

Symptoms include hating hoovers, hand dryers and anything noisy.

I never realised ds had this. He thoght that level of pain was noisy so never complained.

An audiogram by an audiologist would dx it. And we managed to vastly improve my sons hearing through auditory integration training. Other people have had good results with the listening program.