Something I've observed about kids that do Kumon (maths).

[Cortina]

A few of my friends have children who do Kumon. What
I am finding is that without exception these children are in the top sets for maths eventually. Obviously I don't know hundreds but I do know about 20 separate children and ALL have improved and grown in confidence.

The mothers are committed to the programme and get their children to do the obligatory 10 minute work sheet every single day come what may, no exception for high days or holidays.

The kids do the sheets with a clock on a desk or table - 10 mins and an alarm rings. The emphasis appears to be on speed.

One friend of mine enrolled her daughter in a maths class at 3 and half. One of the youngest they've ever taken. All of her children are now exceptional at maths, confident, interested and committed.

It's made me wonder about discipline, these children don't have a problem knuckling down to study later. That enforced, no quibble, initial 10 mins a day stood them in good stead. I wonder if they are on to something?

I looked at Kumon when my dd was struggling with Maths but after some research it turned out to be lots of mental arithmetic, but she needed help with understanding concepts so she could go on to work out the answers for her self.
That said quick mental arithmetic is very important in being able to confidently do problems or any other maths.

We had to go back to basics and re learn all teh times tables so she could rhyme them off quickly so if I asked her whats 8x9, or 12x6 she would know the answer straight away. I suppose that's where Kumon would have helpe, but I did it myself.

It was all very well her understanding why 5x7=35 but she spent so much time on the understanding that she couldn't do the actual sums without it taking forever.

I got her a 'traditional' maths tutor in teh end and now she is near top of teh class. I think they need both-quick mental arithmetic but also the tools to understand other maths.

great post zap - there is so much more to maths than the four operations, and it's fantastic :o

I've reread the OP and just wanted to say, WRT discipline, I actually think in many cases Kumon could be harmful to the development of SELF motivation.

Kumon kids aren't doing their 10 minutes because they want to (mostly) - they are doing it because not just their parents, but their teacher is telling them to. that's pretty far from self motivation IMO!

I have found that most of my friends from grammar schools were the ones who struggled more at FE/HE levels, with the sudden freedom - they were used to being told to do everything rather than learning to get on with it themselves.

I agree with zapostrophe maths is about seeing the patterns
I love egg boxes and bun trays to explore numbers to clearly see that 2 rows of three is the same as three rows of two and that 2 + 2 +2 = 6 and 3+ 3 = 6
If you use 2 or 3 bun trays you can easily demonstrate 3 and 4 times table and cooking is great for numbers much more useful and tasty than Kumon

There is more to Maths than the four operations, but unless there is facility with those operations, the whole edifice may crumble. Good performance gets external encouragement (good grades, parents,teachers praise) this leads to internal encouragement, which can lead to enjoyment of maths, more maths and better understanding. (again this is from Brian Butterworth but is fairly common sense)
Bad performance leads to external discouragement,(low grades, parents, teachers dismay) followed by internal discouragement, anxiety, avoidance, failure to improve and poor understanding and falling further behind school targets.

Poor practice has particularly disastrous effects for maths skills becasue it is progressive and cumulative. There is no alternative to the stage by stage approach of starting with basic concepts ..of arithmetic and geometry.

For children who require a lot of practice, short, timed, massed practice, distributed over several days, of a carefully designed, progressive curriculum such as Kumon seems to be built on sound principles.

I am a Kumon parent, and I can assure you that getting my dd to do her Kumon is far from easy. My dd2 is not self disciplined, and it often takes 20 minutes of moaning before she settles down to do her homework. It is a very good method for teaching number bonds and times tables which require rote learning. However, it is not the be all and end all. When my dd2 learns her times tables she will stop, as did did dd1.

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Do we get to vote on whether Cortina is pregnant or not?

Malaleuca, otoh, was better in Love, Actually (damns with faint praise).

I don't really have anything to add to the thread but the whole idea about teaching children the real life aspects of maths reminded me of my friend who is an engineer. I went into the kitchen to find him and DD who was little more than 2 at the time picking up milk bottles and he was teaching her which one was heavier and which one was lighter

She was only 2 so a bit baffled, but it was very sweet, and now this thread has inspired me to be a bit more interactive with these things with DD (now 3).

I did Kumon for a number of years with both my sons to reinforce basic arithmetic - both of mine were fine with concepts, in fact conceptually quite advanced in DS2's case, but they just didn't know the facts quickly enough. We stopped the Kumon for DS2 in Y4 when I realised it was extending his arithmetic way beyond what he needed.

Actually I don't think it made them self-motivated; they both went through periods of hating it and at the end for DS2 it was a completely counter-productive miserable experience.

Some great ideas here esp from mrz, roadart and zap - the kind of inspiration that I need atm!

mrz said ...If you use 2 or 3 bun trays you can easily demonstrate 3 and 4 times table and cooking is great for numbers much more useful and tasty than Kumon.

At my school the children do cooking once a week right through school, sometimes twice a week, so there is certainly an emphasis on 'tasty' maths!
However, many of the children do not have facility with number facts, and consequently struggle with fractions for example.

This extensive hands-on maths has not resulted in large numbers of children who are competent at maths.

Malaleuca my suggestion was for parents at home where they can spend time with their own child putting paper cases into the tins counting rows and lines and totals reinforcing maths with fun. Talking about cutting cakes, pizza and sandwiches and counting how many pieces and what part of the whole each part is.
Children who have these types of experience (and parents who talk to them) have an advantage over those children who only experience things as part of a large group.

My son's friend did kumon for a year. It put him off education and made him very negative about maths. Death by worksheet is not a good way to teach a child.

In the 21st century there are better ways like Timez Attack for teaching multiplication tables.

I think that Kip McGarth is better than kumon as you have a PROPER teacher. My son did Kip McGarth for two terms as I had the pregnancy from hell and decided to outsource getting my seven year old to do his homework.

He enjoyed and it didn't put him off education

Op I am guessing you must either be a Kumon tutor

oooh thanks for that mrz - DS (6) is doing really well at Maths but I am totally hopeless at it. I am, however, a good cook and he often helps with the bun trays.

Kumon is a cheap nasty ripoff for parents who are scared of maths.

It sucks, don't touch it.

My kids never did Kumon, perhaps they should have but then again my DD excels at school, my DS drags his heels with anything so imagine getting him to sit and do Kumon each day would piss him off no end.

However I have seen my nieces and nephews endure this. I use the word endure because we all used to go on holiday together and they would be having to sit and do Kumon whilst all the other kids were out playing. I'm all for a little extra work where needed but during holidays??????

To this day these same kids have to be nagged and cajoled into studying. They get great grades but I think that is more to do with the parents hovering over them with a rod of iron than Kumon. They are rebelling now and the parents are stressed out their knickers. They were never allowed to just be and my guess is when they finally leave school to go to college or uni, with their new found freedom and shackles broken from their nagging parents, they will spend more time in student bars than studying because they never learned self-discipline. I just don't get spending all that extra money where with half a brain you can print worksheets off the web and do a little with kids yourself as and when it suits.

Nearly six years later you felt the need to revive the thread?!

ZOMBIE ALERT.

Zombie thread but I will comment anyway. My DD is hopeless at Maths, and hates it.

She's been doing Kumon for 6 months (she's 9 btw) and finally seems to have her times tables. We tried everything before - CDs, Carol Vorderman thingy, worksheets, good old practice. None of it worked. Maybe Kumon was just at the right time for her - no doubt if I had the time and patience and she was willing I could do without Kumon and DIY but man it's saved me some grief so I think it's been beneficial.

Different things work for different kids. No way would've I paid for it for my able at Maths DS, but for DD it's been worth it, thusfar.

I didn't revive it, someone else did.

interesting to hear your views mrz. a friend who is a maths teacher told me thus.

A Kumon taught child will immediately fire off the answer to the Q what is 12 x 14, because they just -know- the answer.

Another child will use their knowledge and strategies to work out the correct answer, quickly and thoughtfully.

She would rather have the latter, especially when it comes to more advanced mathematics, and scientific workings too.

I'm sure most kids that do Kumon turn into nasty drunks? If you think Kumon is about Math you're doing it wrong. Sure you can do the same thing at home by who does? Where is the accountability? This is all about training your child to use his/her brain and do something that sucks everyday.... but have enough will power to overcome it. People who dabble in it never get the full benefit of Kumon. Oh, and parents, you need to buckle in cause it sucks!! Remember, it's not about maths.

I am a Maths teacher. Kumon helps with certain skills, but does nothing to help with non numerical things/problem solving.

I've had genius kumon arithmetic solvers who would throw protractors across the room when we tried to do angle work (not a Kumon thing)

Kumon is an awful way to put a ridiculous amount of pressure on your children when it's totally unnecessary.

I tried it with dc1 for a few weeks, thinking it would be just like tutoring. It felt like child cruelty and the staff, initially warm to make the sale, were cold and mean.

Weird these Kumon threads revived time after time...

Kumon threads will continue to live on as some parents do try it for their child/kids and seek opinions or ask for feedback.
Bottom line, parents want their child/kids to excel at school and not all parents are skilled at teaching their own or may lack the time so they outsource additional tuition/private lessons etc. e.g. Kumon
Reasons vary though because maybe you want your child to do repetitive work or drive competition.
I discovered Kumon while on holiday with my kids in America. One of my friends' son was enrolled in it.