afraid for children's safety at school.

[highlandspringerdog]

My children are due to return to their primary school next week.

During the last months of the last term at school there were a number of incidents which led to me feeling worried about what has been going on there.

I tried to get them into other schools over the holidays, including private schools, but have not had any success as they are all full. I put it out of my head while we were in Italy for the last couple of weeks but now we are back and I am full of dread about their return.

I do not want to go into huge depth about exactly what has happened as I do not want to be identified and the incidents are all fairly specific, but to give some idea - children are at times - I do not know how often - left largely unsupervised at play time, even young children in the infants - there will be an adult outside, but they will be sitting on a bench, drinking tea with two other adults, often facing inwards, so most of the playground is not visible to them, they intervene when children approach them but not otherwise. I have seen this myself twice and on raising it with other parents, found that others had seen it too.

Children are not always registered properly -on more than one occassion children are slipped into class late after the register has gone and the register is not updated. I know this as I thought this was what was happening on one occassion when I brought DD in late following dentist appointment, but then couldn't quite believe it so checked with the school secretary who confirmed that if a child is too late they don't get put on the register 'but the teacher always knows who's in and who's not'.

Some very dubious punishments are used also - always just about the right side of the line drawn before physical violence. Despite the harsh punishments however, the atmosphere there is not calm, but chaotic and there is a lot of fighting between the children. I have seen bruises and cuts on my own children from this, but when I have tried to speak to the teacher about it, to check if the alarming stories my sons are telling me are true, she doesn't know what has happened, says she is sorry and that is all.

The head teacher is very hostile to anything other than praise and if a complaint is made against a teacher - as many are - the head will not deal with it unless the parent is willing to come and meet with the complained about teacher and complain face to face. This reduces the number of complaints as many parents do not want to risk the complaint resulting in adverse consequences for their children. I have never tried to complain, but this is what I have been told by many others is the standard approach.

I know my children should not go to this place. It has been the subject of numerous complaints to ofsted and the local education authority, and many families have done the right thing and got their kids out. It was the fact that so many announced their decision to remove their children in the last week of the summer term that really made me think that I was overlooking something important.

I have come to all this late in the day - possibly because I have a nanny and so do not take or collect my children from school and so have not been able to find everything out as quickly as those with more regular access to playground chat. I now wish I had been more clued up earlier and sought places in other schools last year, instead of in the final week of last term, which is when it appears to have reached boiling point.

What would you do?

I have not spoken to the children about this.

Hello,

this happened in my children's old school, from which I have withdrawn them.

There was a lot of this sort of thing going on and there isn't at the new school. Yet both schools are Ofsted Outstanding.

My children's old school seemed to have umpteen procedures and other ways of trying to stop bad behaviour but whatever they were doing was not effective and when my second child joined the school and the same was happening to him, I knew it wasn't just bad luck. I knew there was something broken in the school that nobody was willing to admit wasn't working.

I was exactly in the same boat as you, except none of the other parents pulled them out, just me.

I think most of the other parents thought that was just life in a primary school and I knew deep down they were wrong.

Good luck with your decision, I have never looked back....

Hi - just come to this thread (not like me to miss one of these of late!). I would advise you to trust your intuition. If things are wrong, they will be wrong. Get your DC's names down on other school waiting lists - you have nothing to lose.

The more I read about situations such as yours the more I feel I have to make a stand. Your Headteacher together with your school governing body will be aware of the situation, especially as other parents have removed their children, but I bet you, their attitude is that the 'troublemakers' have left. There will be existing parents who have buried their heads in the sand and those, like yourselves, who are desperate to go but just can't for whatever reason. There will also be those who think the sun shines out of the HT's arse and refuse to accept that there is a problem and of course there will be those who just don't care. I also bet you that the morale of the staff is pretty poor. Almost all teachers that I know socially (and I'm not a teacher) care passionately about their pupils and their wellbeing. An incompetent and ineffectual Headteacher makes for unhappy staff and this could end up unwittingly with lack of classroom control, lack of class structure and ultimately unhappy children.

I have no doubt your LEA will be aware but their line is that the governors rule the roost and due process will have to be followed before they accept there is an issue - and even then they don't have the power to do a great deal about it .

OFSTED will be reluctant to get involved either.

If you are worried about your childs safety then take a look at the GTC website - that may give you a potential way forward.

I truly believe that children deserve the best state education the taxpayer can buy and the closed shop that are headteachers should be far more open to public scrutiny.

Parents remove children from school (as have I) and generally that is that and who can blame them as their children are getting a better education. I, on the other hand, cannot just let that be that and believe me we are talking banging your head up a brick wall here.

The very, very best of luck. Go with your intuitions. You will at least then be able to get a good nights sleep!

Has your LEA told you which local schools do have places?

You can apply for - and appeal for - as many schools as you choose.

"However that means I could look around for a nanny with the specifics of this situation in mind. That is going to be really difficult."

Would you consider a nanny with a home educated child of her own in tow? Occasionally parents on the home ed email lists hanker wistfully after just such a position, a job which allows them to do what they love doing and which will let them bring their own children along. You might advertise directly on a home ed list.

I agree with Small - you could start ringing round the better local schools (if you are aware/ can find out which they are) and ask to be put on their waiting lists, or if they already have any spaces.

You are totally free to do this. We did it when ds1 left his first school in reception. We had a place in a really nice school by October.

The only thing I don't get in your OP is the register thing - children are marked absent I think if they arrive after the register is in, but they are signed into the book at the office as far as I know so someone does know they are there iyswim.

not sure if this is the same. I might be wrong but I'm sure it's something funny like this.

The rest of it does sound appalling and dangerous tbh. I would follow the pack and remove your kids immediately.

The only point I might make is the register - we have a weird computer system that, once the register is processed by the secretary, counts the children. If one appears later in the morning/afternoon, they go under a different category, so appearing as present but not being counted because they're very late.

As a teacher I tend to count the children in my class and write the number on my hand anyway.

The rest of the stuff sounds odd, and if you don't feel your children are safe you should absolutely take action. Good luck. :)

What I was trying to say was don't allow yourself to be fobbed off by schools which tell you they're full. You can still go on their waiting list and you can still appeal for a place (although if your children are in the infants, the infant class size regulations will apply and your scope for winning any appeal is very narrow. See umpteen threads about this).

From September, LEAs are supposed to be taking over all 'casual' (ie not for YR) admissions. Maybe this is the 'new computer system' which the LEA gave as a reason for not doing anything now. I'd be inclined to be bolshy and say that their technical problems are theirs, not mine, and I insisted on being added to the waiting list(s) now.

Great, thanks for all the replies.

I have put their names down and all schools I would consider putting them into. I did this at the end of the summer term and was told at the time that they were all full in the year groups I need.

Most schools expected some movement over the summer holidays. However because of the LEA taking over the admissions as of september, but the schools finishing dealing with them in July, no one at present can tell me if any children have left the schools I am after and so whether there are any places in my kids year groups. So even if some children have left schools, freeing up places for my kids, I won't be told about this until the middle of september at the earliest, so they will have to go back to this place until then, at least.

The waiting lists don't work as 'waiting lists' as such, in that a child who has been on the waiting list for 6 months is necessarily higher on the waiting list than someone who has been on it for 2 weeks. What counts is how close you live to the school, whether you have a sibling already there and whether you have any social or medical need for a place.

So all that is - I think - as far progressed as it possibly can be. I don't think there is anything else I can do to speed that up - unless anyone has any suggestions? I would be very happy to hear them!

I am definitely moving them to another school and they will definitely get in at some point. My feelings of disappointment and dread are,. I think, because I naively thought this would all be sorted out by now and they would be joining a new school from 1st september. Wishful thinking!

I have seen people wait upwards of a year to get their children out of this school. I shall just have to be prepared to do the same.

Interesting remarks about the headteacher above - the headteacher is supported by a group of teachers, who, along with the head, have all been in the school for years, all resist any kind of change. It is a difficult school to get help in.

Yes, that is how waiting lists work. It can sometimes be a good tactic to accept a place for one child, even if places aren't offered to siblings, as then the siblings move into a higher priority category on the waiting list for their classes.

My concern about getting onto the waiting lists ASAP is that - in the event that you live closest to the school and hence should be top of the list - you don't want to miss out on a place because a place falls vacant, your name isn't yet on the list and the place goes to a child who lives further away.

I was in your shoes two and a half years ago.

I moved my girls.

Best thing I ever did.

Trust your instincts.

Get them out and do whatever you have to do to get them out and keep them out.

Even if your child isn't being bullied as such, seeing the incidents and being in such an atrocious atmosphere will affect them.

It does sound like you have a plan. However I'm not sure I would feel comfortable keeping my children somewhere like that even for one more week...it depends how bad it is, and only you know this so don't let us tell you what to do

HE is always an option if only temporarily - lots of people do it for a term or such, while they are waiting. It's actually very good fun - we did it with Ds1 in fact.

Hi, thanks again for the replies.bottburp I'd be really interested to see if you noticed any impact on your children while they were still at the school? Or did you just think you had to get them out quickly before something did impact on them?

Flightattendant - sadly HE is not an option for me as I have to work, as does DH! Otherwise I would love to do it with them. I'd love to have a couple of months of until we got them into a better school but I just cannot see a way to pay the mortgage and not work. Thanks for the suggestion though - if we could afford it, we would certainly give it serious thought.

After having read your 14.14 post in particular, I'd take them out now, i.e. not send them back this term. Then I'd then explore both the getting into other schools options and the HE with the next nanny option.

You're allowed to have a sort of chilling-out period after you take children out of school, aren't you? The people in the HE section can probably advise better.

highlandspringerdog - yeah, impact on the kids- DD1 wasn't the target of any bullying but she lost motivation to work at school and was generally just a bit "flat".

DD2 was subjected to horrific horrendous terrible bullying culminating in an attack in the playground where another child put a rope around her neck, said I hate you I'm going to make you dead, and pulled.

The head of the school told me that "DD2 obviously can't cope with normal playground rough and tumble"

That is terrible. That is horrendous. That sounds exactly like something our headteacher would say. I wonder if you took them out of the same school I am talking about!

Your poor DD2. That is just dreadful. I am so glad she has a great mum who took action to get her out of there though! That must count for a lot when you have been through something so bloody awful.

That's the thing, that was the culmination of a lot of small "minor" stuff

I'm off to sign up for Contact a mumsnetter so you can contact me if you want to....

Thing is, you don't know how bad it really is. It might even be worse then you think...

<a class="break-all" href="//]www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215095/Sacked-Dinner-lady-told-parents-bullying-seven-year-old-daughter.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Read this horrific story

Hi Indigo - link's not working, sends me to topic page - is it just me ?

Sorry, try this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215095/Sacked-Dinner-lady-told-parents-bullying-seven-year-old-daughter.html

Indigo - OMG just read. I am trembling with rage. Had heard about this story but only the periferies. I have had major issues with Headteachers and school governing bodies and refuse to let it die.

Something has to be done - these people are being allowed to get away with blue murder.

Give me a chance to calm down and I will be back.

What to do, what to do???

Thing is - I can't do it on my own and feel that I am constantly banging my head up a brick wall.

HighlandSpringerDog - things won't change - just do your best to get them out - trust your intuition - please don't wait until it's too late.

OMG Highland your school sounds just like the one I'm moving my little girls from!
How do your Ds feel about moving?
One thing I have heard.If you withdraw your Dc from a school and home ed them.Then apply to one of teh full schools, the LEA will try much harder to accommodate them because many LEAs sadly don't like HEing

The school in question is a one form entry religious school in London with a lot of movement of kids in and out. Sons have gone back today. Both relaxed about it. No problem. I'm staying calm and biding my time. I saw the head teacher this morning. She gives me the shivers. A Lot less people there too. I guess even more people may have left than announced at the end of last year. Maybe they got places elsewhere over the summer recess.

I agree with willali. There is something to be said for allowing children to sort out their own disputes - to an extent. It's an important part of the developmental process. I agree that you need to move them to a better school, but unless they are really unhappy I would wait until you have had a chance to find one you're really happy with before you take them out. In my child's school arriving late requires you to sign in at reception, but I don't think the register is updated, so maybe that's also standard practice. Good luck with your endeavours and don't beat yourself up because you weren't the first mum to act on this - take you time and get it right for you and your children.

Thanks vbchesh. I am going to wait it out. No sudden moves! And I really agree on lettnig them sourt out their own disputes as well. But I think we need a place where we trust the adults to not intervene where it is apporpriate for the kids to help themselves, but to definitely intervene where the kids need help sorting stuff out. At present place, I have no trust. None.