Teaching multiplication - how? Any teachers out there?

[Toffeefudgecake]

Am not sure if I am teaching my son correctly, but I don't know any other way of doing it. I have been helping my son (10) with his maths. He is really struggling with multiplication, so I have been teaching him how to carry over the numbers, which he says he has never been taught at school. So, for instance, if he is trying to work out 24 x 7, I have taught him to multiply 7 x 4 and then put the 8 of 28 down below and carry over the 2. Then I have taught him to add the 2 to 2 x 7 to get the answer of 164 (hope this makes sense).

What I'm wondering is - have I done the right thing? He is delighted by the method (after a lot of initial confusion and resistance), but I wonder if I have confused him by teaching him an old-fashioned method. Or is this still how primary-school children are taught? I haven't been able to find anything helpful on Google.

I have taught Year 5 for two years and the methods we teach are:

Grid Multiplication (Google it to find out what the grid looks like) But basically it's partitioning the numbers e.g.::

24x7=

20x7 (Do 2x7, then x 10 for the '0') =140

4x7=28

140+28=168

So 24x7=168

Thank you Teacher401. Is that probably how my son will have been taught then? In which case, I have either confused him utterly or provided him with another method to choose from.

I'll see if he knows, but if I ask him he usually just says he doesn't know.

I have home educated all my dc at some point - a lot of the ways we automatically do things is the way the children are taught now,for example if I have to work out 6x8 I automatically think 5x8=40 + 1x8=48.

My eldest ds struggled terrifically adding up fractions so I showed him how I do it,I cant explain how to do it but doing it my way he did it faster than his teacher .....the teacher asked him to explain how he did it.....'well I cant explain it to you,its my mums way and she cant explain it either but Ill show you what she showed me'

There is a powerpoint on here that shows you how to do it.

Nickchick - so you are saying maybe I shouldn't be worrying too much about the method if my son gets the right answer? I suppose you're right. And I suppose too that he might be able to use a variety of methods quite happily.

Cere - thanks for the powerpoint link. I can find lots of stuff on the grid method here - I suppose that means it's the popular method now.

I think the grid method must be easier than mine if you are doing mental maths.

Incidentally, when I asked my DH how he multiplied, he'd never heard of my method. I'm not sure how he works out his answer, but he's very quick at mental aritmetic.

I asked my ds how he was taught at school and the answer was, inevitably, "I dunno".

Sounds like a typical boy Toffeefudgecake with the 'I dunno' response. My class went up to Year 6 for transition day in the last week of term. I'm an English specialist so had done loads on alliteration, nouns, verbs and adjectives etc. with them. When I went in they had told the Year 6 teacher they'd never heard of them! The minute I said 'Excuse me, never heard of them?' they all jumped up with 'I know, I know!'

As for the grid method, yes it's the national strategies method, so they should have been taught it. We introduce it in Year 3.

Toffee I think that by showing children varying ways of using numbers they gain an advantage as it shows different routes to the same destination.....all minds are different- another example is ds3 he thinks very literally so he looks at all maths problems as though they affect him therefore 36 divided by 6 becomes in his mind 26 sweets 6 children,adding up 1324 + 123 becomes £13.24 +£1.23 then he drops the decimal.......

Maths and science are definitely his strength but using his 'outlook'.

I love the grid method! I'd never seen it until my DSDs showed me it, now even if during my degree studies I need a large multiplication I use that method!

I love the grid method too!
It's really easy to teach children and I use it when I need to too.

I had parents talk to me about carrying over.. which is the way I was taught, but I only think it's confusing.

I was year 4 teacher teaching top set in maths.

Division you group too. But that's another problem.

I do think it's important to be shown all methods - but actually the grid method shows more clearly how multiplication actually works.

I can't remember how my DSDs were shown how to do division, it seemed really long drawn out and confusing

Thanks everyone. Clearly, the grid method is the preferred method these days and my son should have learnt it by now. I'll go through that method with him as well - at least he'll have a choice of which method to use.

Lots of people may disagree, but as a teacher in Year 5/6 I've found that children being taught a range of methods really does confuse them and this whole idea of 'choosing a method' doesn't really work.

What they need is to be taught one method really well so that they could do it in their sleep and then be shown 'You can also do it this way', so they've got the safety of referring back to the original method. Teaching a range of methods really does lead to massive confusion for children.

yes I can see that. but WWYD if for some reason a child didn't get on with a particular method?would you then show them the alternative?

What should I do now, Teacher401? DS now understands my method and is using it to practise his Kumon maths. I am afraid of confusing him by reminding him of the grid method, even though it seems really straightforward. Should I let him continue with my method and then introduce the grid method to him later, as that is what he'll be using at school?

Incidentally, he is dyslexic and struggles with his memory. He says that he just can't remember what he's been taught in maths. I expect he has been taught the grid method, but has forgotten it. As a dyslexic, he really has to overlearn things to remember them.

For Kumon Maths, (my brother does this) they don't use the grid method, so I would say that if he is successful using the Kumon method then continue with yours. However, I would show him the grid method and say 'Have you seen this method?' as more than likely that is what will be taught in school.

MathsMadMummy- I've never met a child that can't use the methods I teach, it can take days, weeks, months of practice but eventually they will get it. I'm an Inclusion Leader/Year 6 teacher and even children that struggle with particular needs can learn a method if it is concretely. The problem lots of schools have is the Year 3 teacher teaches Multiplication using one method, Year 4 different, Year 5 and usually Year 6 do generally do the same but call things differently so that confuses the children even more, then at home they're taught something different again. I do however have a progression in my calculation teaching e.g. for division we do basic chunking and then introduce bus stop or for Multiplication we do grid method and if they can handle this, then usually they will follow easily into the Long Multiplication column method. I think a steady progression in Methods is what is needed really. At my school we have a set policy so that each teacher teaches things really well, teaches the same method and uses the same vocabulary.

It can be simple things like one of my parents is from Liverpool and what I call the bus stop method (standard term usually) his Mum calls the 'Tunnelling Method for division' and he kept saying to me 'Why does Mum divide in a Tunnel?' once I spoke to her, we discussed this issue and all was sorted. (sorry to have hijacked the thread!)

"the Year 3 teacher teaches Multiplication using one method, Year 4 different, Year 5 and usually Year 6 do generally do the same but call things differently so that confuses the children even more"

yes!!!

I'm hoping to eventually be a primary teacher and hopefully a maths specialist if there is such a post, and consistency throughout the school would be one of my aims!

what on earth is the bus stop/tunnel method please teacher401?

You could be a Maths co-ordinator, MMM, and responsible for the teaching and learning of Maths throughout the school. You would usually still have a class and teach them all subjects, though. Most schools have a calculation policy where methods are taught sequentially according to attainment.

Bus stop method is (I think!) short division.(Looks a bit like a bus shelter with the numbers underneath).

that's my dream job feenie! I'd definitely like to be a 'normal' primary teacher (KS2) but to be able to also improve maths standards across a whole school would be amazing as it is (obviously!) my passion. Is that sort of post available in all schools, do you know, or does it depend on the school?

ah yes just googled bus stop method and it is indeed short division - in my day we just called it... division!

y'know, I find it quite hard to do the long division thing where you write underneath as well. I only learned how to do it when doing algebraic long division

Most schools have a Numeracy co-ordinator. It might not be the kind if thing you can do straight from graduating though, since it's a core subject - you might have to wait until you've got some experience. Have a look in the TES jobs section next term (not a lot going right now, obviously!) and you will see schools asking for Maths co-ordinators. You'll get some idea of what they are looking for from those i.e. some might ask for a proven teaching record and advertise the post with TLR 1/TLR 2 (extra salary, depending on how big the school is). A more challenging school might be happy to employ a mature NQT with an interest/passion for Maths, perhaps.

r.e. division - have you come across [http://www.wmnet.org.uk/wmnet/custom/files_uploaded/uploaded_resources/850/chunking.swf chunking?]] It really helps with the concept of division/repeated subtraction.

Rats, messed up link: Chunking

thanks so much for that info Feenie :)

yes, I would certainly not expect to go straight into the co-ordinator role. I guess I should probably focus on my initial degree first! I did look at a specialist maths PGCE though, that somebody linked to on another thread - something about maths and KS2/3 - but not really sure yet. I will have to start doing some research about what the best path is for me :)

I'd heard of chunking, as my DSDs have used it - never really understood it before but it seems to make sense now. I guess it makes it clearer why you get the answer!