Literacy/Numeracy Hour - good or bad?

[MathsMadMummy]

is this idea helpful or harmful?

just randomly wondering really. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. IIRC it's relatively recent isn't it? I don't remember having it at school in the 1990s.

I'm quite a fan of cross-curricular learning, I think it's great when maths can be combined with geography or whatever.

could the 'hour' be offputting? if a child is struggling with maths they would dread the hour a day whereas possibly involving maths in a more low-key way would be more approachable for them? I may be being naive here.

I also wonder if the hour is here to stay? is it a really good thing or just another example of govt interference in schools? I'm planning to be a primary teacher so gawd only knows what the rules will be when I qualify in a few years.

sorry for the incoherent rambling nature of this post I'm just thinking out loud so to speak, but I'd really love to know what your thoughts are, especially teachers... thanks

daily practice - good - lumped into one specific hour not good. I agree maths and english should be brought into all subjects.

I thought the prescribed hour was being phased out.

oh right. I think that's a good thing... but again I'm not sure (hence me starting the thread!).

I've taken an active interest in education for years (before DCs) but TBH I take everything with a pinch of salt as I know it'll change a billion more times before my DCs start school!

Bad IMO. I think that making 'maths' something separate risks making it boring and can cause children to end up saying they hate maths, even though maths is part of life. Same with literacy.

It's also insulting to teachers. It says 'we don't trust that you have the ability to make sure that lots of numeracy and literacy are covered during all the activities you do, so we're going to tell you when and how you have to do them.

It's like saying to parents that we have to talk to our children from 8-9am and from 5-6pm because otherwise we wouldn't do it enough.

The Numeracy/Literacy hours haven't existed since 2006.

And agree with Belgian Bun! It's nigh on impossible to link most Maths to topics, although some can still be taught in a meaningful way. But some of it needs to stand alone to be taught well, in a dedicated lesson.

It's easier to teach English/Literacy through novels, history topics, science, etc, and long as the skills are explicitly taught alongside.

Ah ok, my DSDs school still called it that so I thought they were still the done thing . why were they ditched then?

as I said I like cross-curricular learning but I too would worry about not being able to cover everything in maths especially. I suppose I feel that a specific one-hour session every day would be a bit prescriptive. but of course I may be talking irrelevant nonsense if they've been phased out anyway... ho hum

They were too prescriptive and rigid (15 minutes spelling, 15 minutes shared reading, 20 minutes guided reading/independent work, 10 minutes plenary and woe betide you if you went a minute over any of those times!). They were ditched in favour of the new Primary Framework (Literacy and Maths), which was more relaxed, and from September this too ceases to be statutory.

oh I see thanks. what's the primary framework about then?

as a teacher d'you ever just wish the govt would butt out and let you get on with it? (I'm dreading that if I become a teacher TBH)

Shall I let you into a secret? ( looks round carefully in case anyone is listening) I don't follow the frameworks, I look at what my children are expected to know, what I want to teach them and how I think they will learn best and just work from there!

nah, good for you

They were never statutory anyway! And they lack any skills progression.... I think a few out of work road sweepers cobbled them together in the pub.

"as a teacher d'you ever just wish the govt would butt out and let you get on with it?"

Oh yes. But good teachers just do what they know works anyway. All the 'trendy' teaching which ignored phonics completely, until it was trumpeted in a few years ago? Decent teachers never ever stopped doing it the first time round.

OMG it really wasn't statutory? had no idea

it's all so confusing!

But we were 'leaned on' very heavily to use the first ones - you had to have something so damn good in place of it that it wasn't really worth having your own scheme of work. Better to teach what you knew you needed to around it.

I am pro the lit and num hour. but lit is convering in a cross-curricular mannar - its just we focus it with a literacy objective. Dito the numeracy hour - I like the structure of it but we go over and beyond it - problem solving, again using maths in real life suitations and in science etc as well as counting etc at extra times during the day etc etc...

also I find lots of children like the familiar ... every day has at least sone bits the same.

No its not staturatory but you would have to something pretty bloody good in place

(oh god excuse the typos....am trying to potty train dd3 who needs a poo but won't sit on the potty)

I remember hearing something about various other 'hours' that had people up in arms (more interference etc) - 'culture hour' and some such thing... what happened with that?

The Literacy hour and the Numeracy 40ish mins- (it was never intended to be an hour although people called it that ) were not statutory so many schools (ones with good results who could point to their success) ignored them right from the start.

I have to say I don't think the numeracy framework is bad (if you fiddle around with it just a little) but the literacy strategy and framework ...

how is the newer strategy different though?

I need a 'government education policy for dummies' book

The numeracy framework was the numeracy strategy put into 5 blocks!

The old literacy strategy was a prescribed termly list of text, sentence and word level work for YR-Y6.

This was replaced by the wishy-washy framework, which included some interactive resources designed by pre-schoolers. Just as an example of the questionable content, in the 'instructions' unit in Y2 (and probably Y3,4,5...) is to: Engage with books through exploring and enacting interpretations. Now what does that have to do with instructions? Nearly all of it is like this - written by mindless idiots.

maybe maths doesn't get included in other subjects sufficiently because a lot of primary teachers are not natural mathematicians ?

They are often arts graduates and may be more naturally inclined to enhance a subject in and art or drama or creative writing manner, rather than a maths manner - eg when studying France they may look at the art or culture rather than drawing a map, measuring things, looking at population density etc.

So maybe that is why specific lessons have evolved.

I am not having a go at teachers - just a personal observation that many primary (probably secondary too) teachers are not instinctively used to looking at the numerate side of a given topic.

I think some things just have to be taught discretely as young children need to have the skills and knowledge before they can successfully apply them in the ways throckenholt suggests.
If a child doesn't know how to measure then it's pretty pointless asking them to so... If they don't know where (what) France is it's pointless talking about population density ...
If they have never seen a map they won't be able to draw one ...
Like many adults throckenholt seems to be assuming children arrive in school with knowledge and skills very few possess. Our new reception teacher (only ever taught older children in her teaching practice) was very shocked to discover her new class won't be able to read and write in September and she will have to teach them before they can do all the lovely literacy ideas she has planned

mrz; you're joking.

Please tell me you're joking...

"Our new reception teacher (only ever taught older children in her teaching practice) was very shocked to discover her new class won't be able to read and write in September and she will have to teach them before they can do all the lovely literacy ideas she has planned"