Admissions experts - advice please - is this right??

[MrsOB]

Hi,

I have had some excellent advice on this site, in particular from prh47bridge and admissions and I wonder if I can ask a couple more ? I realise I?m pushing my luck, but am finding it hard to trawl through School Admissions Codes etc!!

We had our appeal on Thursday and to be honest, if that is how appeals work they should just be abolished and everyone can save their time and money.

My first point : when I tried to bring up questions I had at Stage 1, I was told that it needed to wait until Stage 2 as it was ?personal?. The evidence/questions I had were around the admissions procedure so I believed it should have been brought up at Stage 1. We played bat and ball on this for a while (them saying leave it till Stage 2, me saying I thought it should be Stage 1) until another parent said that if it was relevant to the admissions process they would like to hear what I had to say. It was with great resignation that they let me continue.

I asked a couple of questions (which were also in my written statements given to the panel before the hearing) about the categorising of applications and the then school admitted that, yes, they had made a mistake (a parent allegedly put a baptismal certificate in with their application for ?another? child despite their child not being baptised at all), but they had realised it the day after their meeting to allocate places, had contacted the local authority and the LA had said it was okay to still offer a place to that child under section 2.63(c) of the admissions code. The school representative waved around a piece of paper towards the panel who did not even glance at it. The panel accepted the schools answer and we were told to move on and that we were not allowed to ask any more questions of the school around this new information in Stage 1. Also, at this stage the schools representative and the Headmistress were both talking over each other and I couldn?t quite work out what was being said. If I couldn?t get my head around it I wonder how the panel did??.

When we got to Stage 2, I tried to ask questions around the new information the school had said at Stage 1: I wanted to know how, if they had spotted the ?mistake? the day after allocating places they still sent the details to the LA who offered the child a place, despite the fact they had over 6 weeks to withdraw the place before the place was offered by the LA. The school rep said that once the allocations were in there was nothing she could do to change them. However, we contacted the LA on Friday and they said if the school had contacted them to say there was a mistake they would never had offered a place.

The school representative also changed her story (she said the parent had in fact applied as a different category (category 4), but that because they had seen the family at church they assumed the child had been baptised so the school re-allocated their application to category 2!). I was told by the panel this was all irrelevant and that as it wasn?t my child we were talking about they were not allowed to consider it and I should basically stop asking questions??..

I also wasn?t allowed to ask any questions about another parent getting somebody else presenting a form to a Priest to sign and then putting their name at the bottom of it because, again, this was a different child and had no relevance to the admissions process or my child.

They were also hung up on the fact that my child was number 36 on the ranked list which was given to the LA so he therefore wouldn?t have got a place. However, from that list of 36, five of the children were offered higher ranked schools, so if the child I referred to being admitted because of a ?mistake? in the admissions process hadn?t have been offered a place my child would have been. But they basically said, your child was 36 on the list, there is no point you pursing this ? and I wasn?t given the opportunity to explain my point.

Finally, when I said that it seemed as if 2 parents had, in some way, put what could be defined as fraudulent information (baptismal certificate for a different child / form signed by Priest for another person) in with their application they clerk said that ?was between them and God? ??. and another panel member said ?well that?s life, you wouldn?t believe the number of times I hear parents say that?.

Is this really how appeals are supposed to work? I really felt that the process was set up to validate the schools case, not to hear evidence from both sides.

I know that we will lose our appeal and I feel so frustrated that I wasn?t allowed to put my case forward in the way I wanted to. I ended up in tears because I just felt as if everything I wanted to say was being trampled on. At the end when clerk asked ?do you feel you have been able to question the school? I said yes, but only because I felt absolutely defeated and what would have been the point of saying ?no??

I am wondering if it is worth contacting the LGO or if this is in fact the way appeals are run.

Thanks for listening to the ramble ???

No this is not the way appeals are run. Some of the things you say here are seriously wrong.

Where you are alleging that a mistake has been made you should bring it up in stage 1 but the chair will often ask you to leave it to stage 2. There is no problem with that, nor is there any real issue with the chair changing his/her mind when other parents wanted to hear what you had to say.

The conflict between what the school's representative was saying and what you had been told by the LA isn't directly an issue for the LGO. However, I would expect an appeal panel to know that it should be possible to correct mistakes right up to the offers being sent out. They should also know that, once a place has been offered by mistake, the school was required to offer the place to the child who should have got it. That clearly didn't happen, nor does it seem to have worried the panel. Raise that with the LGO.

Section 2.63c of the Admissions Code absolutely does NOT say that it was ok to offer a place to a child in error when the mistake has been discovered before the offer date. It actually says that when an offer has been made in error it is ok to admit the child who should have been offered the place. So you have the school giving evidence that was wrong. You also talk about them waving a piece of paper towards the panel. The school should not be producing any significant new evidence that you have not seen. If the panel looked at that piece of paper or it was left with them the panel it is a major failing. So there are a couple of points here to raise with the LGO.

You have evidence that at least one child has been placed in the wrong category on spurious grounds - the school deciding to move them up a couple of categories because they saw the family in church. The panel has stopped you from asking about this on the grounds that it is irrelevant. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. If a child has been admitted incorrectly due to a mistake and your child should have been admitted, the mistake is VERY relevant. It also raises the possibility that other mistakes have been made with children being moved up the admission categories on similarly spurious grounds, again something which should interest the panel. The panel has refused to allow you to present relevant evidence. They have even said they aren't allowed to consider it which is clearly wrong. If you have evidence of a mistake they are required to consider it. That is a major failing in the way the appeal was conducted. Definitely raise this with the LGO.

Then they get hung up on your child being number 36 on the list and refusing you the opportunity to explain that your child would actually have been the next one admitted. Again, WRONG. This is appalling. Another point to raise with the LGO.

Schools and LAs cannot be expected to pick up all fraudulent applications. However, they should conduct basic checks. If the baptismal certificate is for a different child or the priest has signed for another person, that is something the school should pick up. All they have to do is check the names match. Failing to do so is maladministration. Again, this should be raised with the LGO.

If I had been to an appeal that was run this badly, I would probably have had my submission to the LGO written and ready to go before the decision letter arrived!

It should have been the chair of the panel rather than the clerk asking you if you had been able to question the school. It is a shame you said yes but easily explained to the LGO. In any case, the question should have been whether you had been able to present all the evidence you wanted.

From the description you have given, the way this appeal was conducted fell a long way short of the required standards. The school's administration of admissions also fell short of the required standards. Based on the information you have given here, you had an open and shut case. A child was admitted in error. The school admitted as much during the appeal. If that child had not been admitted your child would have been offered a place. That means you shouldn't even have needed to go to appeal. Under the Appeal Code the school should simply have offered your child a place.

You should definitely refer this to the LGO. You ought to prepare a written submission for the LGO setting all this out clearly. If you want any help with that feel free to contact me - use the "contact poster" link or email me at [email protected].

Its actually probably easier to say what was done right than what was done wrong because most of it seems to have been done wrong!

In terms of the place being offered by error. I would agree that this could easily have been corrected before the date of places being sent out. I also find it quite difficult to believe that the LA would have agreed to it happening like this, but even if they had there is basic school boy error. Having accpeted an error had been made, yes it would have correct not to remove the place (if offered) but they should then have admitted a 31st pupil, that is the pupil who would have been admitted if the mistake had not been made.

There is absolutely no way that the panel should have been party to the information that you were 36th on the ranking list. It also betrays a complete lack of knowledge as to how the ranking system works because at 36 under the equal preference systme you could have been the first person offered a place at the school if the 35 before you had been offered higher preferences. Somewhat unlikely i accept but a clear indicator that the panel had not been trained properly.

I hate it when these kind of things happen as it simply undermines all the good work panels do. I would agree with PRH that this should definitely go to the LGO. One thing that you do need to address is the issue over confirming that you had said everything you wanted to say. That is going to weigh heavily on the panel's side and against you so I think you need to make the point in your letetr that you felt bullied by the panel to say that having been not allowed to ask questions that you wanted to.

Thanks guys for your comments.

I did kind of have the feeling during the appeal that it shouldn't have been going the way it was, but was at a loss of how to rectify the situation. Both myself and my husband just felt defeated so we did pretty much just lie down and get walked over!!

We will certainly contact the LGO and hopefully get another appeal.

Really, really appreciate your help on this. I'm hoping the saga will be over soon!

Thanks again!

I would ask the LGO to recommend that the school admits your child on the grounds that a mistake has been made and, but for that mistake, your child would have been admitted. Point to paragraph 2.7 of the Appeals Code which says that if an error has been made and your child should have been admitted the school MUST offer the place without requiring you to go through an appeal. It may be that the LGO will only recommend a fresh appeal but there is no harm in asking. They do sometimes recommend that a child is admitted without a further appeal.