Child excluded but parent wont collect him..

[propatria]

Can someone explain how this can happen.
A child at dd2 school attacked a teacher(he did it last year as well) Head excludes child for the day and rings up parent to collect child,parent refuses saying "Thats what the child wants,im not collecting him"
Result -Child goes back to class,
What message does this send out?

Ten years ago my ds was excluded for attacking another child. Ds has autism and at that time had a full time statement which if the school had been using his TA properly should have meant he didn't get the opportunity to attack another child as it was documented he didn't tolerate children readily.
Anyway he did and even though I told the school if they sent him home he would attack at every opportunity they still decided it was school policy.
True to form at the first opportunity he attacked the same child again believing he would be sent home because he hated being surrounded by children and the noise and smells but the head obviously realised excluding him had been a mistake and kept him in school.
Unfortunately ds's understanding wasn't such that he understood that he wouldn't be sent home and so spent weeks upping his attacks on that child in the vain hope of being sent home.
I would say that if being sent home is the motive to behave badly then being sent home shouldn't happen and as a parent I too would refuse to collect a child who saw it as a reward.

propatria, - re your last post, that is exactly the kind of thing I would have said to one of the other mums on the playground if they got wind of my DSs behaviour. I wouldn't actually be going into the fact that I was waiting for an apt with CAHMS, had a constant battle to get him into school in the morning, was terrified all day that I would be getting a phone call, and knew that the school environment really wasn't a healthy one for my DS, and dearly wished the teacher could see the world through his eyes.

Her DS is only 7, and I guess she will perfect her chosen phrases so other parents aren't so disproving in the future.

disapproving

maktaitai - thank heavens for your post! I was reading that an externally excluded child would be looking forward to going home etc with my eyebrows reaching my hairline. If my DD were excluded for attacking someone she most certainly would not be having "quality time" at home - she would be having a very dull and lonely time in her room, with no toys or games, etc.

I realise I don't have a child of this age yet but is it really so hard to create a safe environment an excluded seven year old?

I think its fairly standard to disapprove of a child that attacks a tacher.

I would suspect ASD or something. This is an issue that comes up again and again on asd boards - completely inappropriate exclusions which result in behaviour escalation as described above. I have in the last 9 years come across a couple of parents who have through desperation taken this tack.

Usually it means the school placement is inappropriate but for many kids there is no alternative (we were lucky when school complete mismanagement in mainstream led to my previously well behaved child headbutting and kicking teachers (he was being held down to force him to thread beads aged 5 -even the headteachet commented that he would headbut and hit out if physically trapped) we were able up swap him to special school within a few weeks where he has blossomed - but he's severely autistic - for those who are higher functioining there's often no other choice).

BDSM, internal exclusion worked much better for my child than external exclusion.
Coping every day in the NT world was very hard for him, like walking a tightrope for hours. All it took was a few extra items thrown at him to knock him off his perch and fall, and when he had a meltdown, he became violent.

'I was reading that an externally excluded child would be looking forward to going home etc with my eyebrows reaching my hairline. If my DD were excluded for attacking someone she most certainly would not be having "quality time" at home - she would be having a very dull and lonely time in her room, with no toys or games, etc.'

Of course to the average child, that would be less than lovely.
To my son, it was the lack if interaction, the tranquility and the peace from coping with the world that he craved.
So raise your eyebrows as high in disbelief as you choose to, it won't alter the fact that some of us have very different children who don't respond in NT ways to punishments.
That's one of the reasons why so many of us with children on the spectrum home educate.

Goblinchild, I'd totally agree that I'd strongly support internal exclusion over external exclusion, and it sounds like something is fundamentally wrong with the placement of this child, which needs tackling. BUT if a teacher or head teacher calls me and says I need to take my child home, then IMO whatever I think about how the school is handling the situation, that day is not the moment to alter the policy - at that moment, I need to support the school and look after my child. Whether the child is desperately overloaded and needs quiet, or acting up for some other reason and needs attention withdrawing, I stand by sending them to their room as the best policy.

People have very different views on exclusion. In Oz children must go home if they have nits. Some parents are furious when they have to collect their children.

It was ds's idea of heaven to be sent to his room and ignored so in his eyes he had discovered a way to get home.
He had no conscience and no understanding of how the child he was attacking would have felt.
For my son punishments have always been futile, he has never learnt from them, never linked the punishment with the crime and never been bothered by any punishment you could think of.
Funnily enough when we moved him to another school they never ever punished him but rewarded every tiny positive (a sticker for allowing a child within feet of him without screaming or throwing) and in that school he never attacked any child.
I imagine the mother wasn't boasting at all but has grown the required thick skin and bravado necessary to deal with the constant criticism of disapproving and judgemental parents and teachers.

I don't have a child on the spectrum, but even I read BelleDame's post with eyebrows moving heavenwards. Surely it is not so difficult to imagine that a child that (for whatever reason) is struggling socially at school, to the extent of lashing out, might actually find a dull quiet room at home a bit of a reward?

maktaitai- the parents I have come across who have refused have done so after many many requests to come and collect their child. Usually following something that the school should have coped with. In some cases it was a case of having lost so much time at work dealing with problems with the school provision that they had simply got to the stage where they couldn't leave work again for something that the school should have been able to cope with.

This might not be the situation in this case of course, but I certainly know of cases where it has happened. Much better of course to be able to work with the school, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way- especially when kids are not NT.

I know that when ds1 was in mainstream a professional working with him (who had known him for a long time) eventually came to me, said she really felt she had to say what she was going to say although she felt very awkward doing so, and then told me she was horrified by ds1's behaviour in school (remember she had known him a long time and worked with him at nursery and at home over a period of about 18 months). She said that she felt the school were mismanaging him, were not listening to advice, were not interested and worst of all were repeatedly escalating behaviours. She became very serious and told me if I didn't get a grip on it then were would quickly end up with a child who had a whole host of challenging behaviours, which were there purely from bad management. We were very lucky - he could move into a school that is perfect for him and we have never had those issues again - 6 years later he is as well behaved as he can be given the severity of his condition.

But for some parents they get stuck in schools that don't or won't react appropriately and I have seen parents trying to force the issue out of desperation (so refusing to pick up because their child has kicked off for example). It takes a long time for most to get to that stage though. I don't think it particularly works as a tactic to getting the school to do what they should, but I can understand the desperation.

Thanks for posting saintly - i feel better informed. it's really easy to react/judge based on a single incident when it may well be the tip of an extremely frustrating iceberg

OP, you should be very, very sure you know all the facts before judging. My DS has been excluded eight times this term. Yes, eight. He has been internally excluded dozens of times. On several occasions I have refused to collect him (for various reasons, which I won't go into now). I am a loving, committed parent, am in constant communication with the school and actually have a fairly good relationship with them, but there have been occasions when I have questioned their judgement to exclude, yes, and other times when I simply could not leave what was doing in the middle of the day to collect my DS.

propatria why are you gossipping about this over the internet? I really hope that the parent doesn't see this thread.
Schools have to give notice to exclude anyway.

I think the problem is provision.

External exclusions are more serious than internal exclusions, and they need to happen- cumulatively they can highlight problems a child is having; unfortunately, suitable placements are often only found for children who have been externally excluded multiple times and are at risk of permanent exclusion.

There should however be a facility for excluded children to attend and be educated for the day. In the LEA where I work, there is a facility for those excluded for 3 days or more; I would like to see this extended so that an externally excluded child never needs to be at home.

cornsilk, did you CAT me? I deleted my inbox

yes I did! Was explaining why I was grilling you about your job.

Hooray!

Sorry- read your message then 'cleaned up' my inbox , deleting any reply address.

If you want to email again, I may be able to find out some info

okay thanks

propatia, I was referring to your disapproval of the mothers reaction, about which you started a thread.

I would be mortified if I were the mother and saw someone had started this thread, but I so hope the mum is a mumsnetter, and she is able to post and find support, like I have been able to. Because I tell you, there is not a lot of support out there for mums with DC like this. At the very last thing they need is judgy mums at the school gate.

You asked for an explanation as to how a mother of an excluded child wouldn't collect him. I hope this thread has gone some way to provididng you with an explanation.

TBH, if I only had my other 2DC, I may well be asking the same question as you. But having a DS who has struggled in the school environment to the extent where his behaviour has become disruptive/violent I know it's a case of "Don't judge until you've walked a mile in her shoes."

*LynetteScavo" well said I echo every sentiment.I could never understand why the parents who judged me and ds so harshly to the extent of petitioning to get him removed from the school didn't remember that I had had three other children go through the same school without ever being a bother.How could I have been so useless when my other three were "seemingly perfect" just like theirs.
Believe it or not eight years after ds left the local school one of the parents asked me if ds was still badly behaved I told her he never was but still had autism and then asked whether her ds was any brighter than he used to be