Normal teenage behaviour or more?

[christologymum]

Having issues with middle daughter and I cant work out if this is normal 12 year behaviour or something more. Youngest was diagnosed at 6 with ASD and now on pathway for ADHD so my judgement could be clouded.

Always had sensory things, has been obsessed with slime, making and concocting potions since very small never grown out of it. Can't have flour, sugar etc in the house as she can't resist trying to make stuff.

Struggles to regulate emotions last year had a series of meltdowns where she literally trashed the house, weed on the carpet, threw paint at the walls, poured 4 pints of milk on the floor, thankfully these have calmed down but still struggles and has aggressive out bursts mainly with her sibling and can lash out pinch/hit. At the time I flagged it with school as GP can't refer to CAHMS only school can, they were going to assess her at school but they never did and I didn't follow up as it seemed to resolve it self, and she wouldn't present at school like that, just anxious

Random outbursts of making noises/ growling doesn't seem to know she is doing it. Fails to respond when spoken to, have to say things a number of times before she will acknowledge being spoken to.

Clumsy, can't have a shower/clean teeth without knocking everything off, constantly bangs around knocking things over, especially drinks etc. leaves litter everywhere despite being told numerous times like she has no concept, but her room is immaculate she is obsessive about keeping it in order. And gets stressed when it's not exactly how she likes it to be.

Has little concept of appropriate behaviour, think going into her sisters room at 1am putting light on to look for something, can't see why it's a problem because she's fixed on finding something she has her heart on getting. Deciding to get a shower in my room at 12am again no concept of time and other people in the house. Becomes unsettled at night from 9pm she will literally pace the house up and down the stairs. Leaves all lights on cupboard doors after her, and a wave of destruction. I've now started hearing her talking to herself. Never shuts a cupboard behind her.

Problems with eating. Won't engage with a full meal. Lots of things she won't eat so very limited diet but constantly snacks, grazes. Will often binge on snacks. Underweight, my friends have mentioned it. Will eat veg and fruit all day but nothing of much substance. Hence the being hungry all the time, can be very lethargic in the day, but springs to life at night.

Currently refusing school, I'm meeting them next week. Always struggled with friendships, seems to go from one to another. Was being bullied by some girls but that's now been resolved, but still refuses to go to school as paranoid about something happening, seems to excessively worry about it even though it's been resolved. Excessive anxiety around it, and being in school in general. Seems to panic and over think things a lot.

I have a meeting with school this week, and also GP about her anxiety. She says she will refuse to come but I will still go if she does. Should I mention the other things? It's difficult to know what is just normal pre teen behaviour and what might be something more. I'm at my whits end with it, and written out it doesn't seem so bad but living in it is exhausting.

I didn’t want to leave your message unanswered. It sounds really tough for you all.

I’ve got (some) experience with children with ASD or ADHD and lots of the things you’ve mentioned sound as if one or both of these could be a possibility.

It also sounds really hard, you’ve said “written out it doesn’t seem that bad” I think, kindly, that it does sound pretty bad.
You sound like a really caring and kind Mum and going to the GP and speaking to the school are a really good idea. I would flag with both that she has a sibling with ASD, as there can be a genetic component.

With both ASD and ADHD, anxiety is a common feature, as I’m sure you know. You could try keeping a diary so that you’ve got an indication of how frequent her different behaviours are when you talk to the GP and school.

I hope you are given the support that you both need. It’s really hard to be a child with anxiety (whether the cause is neurodivergence or not) but it is also extremely tough to support a child with anxiety, please try and look after yourself as well. Take care.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

She asked me last night if she did a full week at schools would I pay for her to get her nails done at the weekend with the holidays next week, I agreed as thought that would be way of getting her to school giving her an incentive. She was all prepared to go and packed ready

Then this morning she refused, was in tears because her hair had lumps in it and her eye lashes don't look right so she's back in bed. I offered to straighten her hair etc but she was adamant and just broke down.

I've just tried to call our early help service but apparently you can't self refer so when I meet school tomorrow I'm going to push for that, and will def be completely honest with them and the GP with what's happening.

I actually feel like this is making me ill now, I'm trying to work whilst also managing calls from school etc, I don't suffer from anxiety but I'm finding I'm increasingly more anxious now and just fed up.

Oh gosh OP, that sounds really difficult, and I think, to answer your question it's 'not normal.' It sounds like you need significantly more support than you're currently getting. I bet it's exhausting to have to 'push harder' and 'make more of a fuss' when things are so difficult, but I would really have a push at the GP tomorrow to see what can be offered to make things a bit easier for you all.

Sounds like it is anxiety with some sort of neurodiversity behind it - neurodiversity in distress - her needs are not being met at school. Give yourself grace and self care and pick your battles until you can get an assessment/help. Hope the GP was able to get you help soon. Can you connect with a local SEN parent group for support in the meantime?

Quick update, school meeting went well. They are referring her to a service which sounds like talking therapies which come to school and the school counsellor. The GP is also referring to CAHM's for neurodiversity assessment and the anxiety. Also when they weighed her she's only 5 stone 5, I'm not sure exactly how tall she is, worked it out on her being 4'11 and she comes out on 1st centile on nhs child bmi calculator. She could be slightly taller.

She did the rest of the week at school, but has been at her dad's this weekend and been messaging me constantly to come home, and ran off due to a disagreement with ex's new girlfriends son, I couldn't do anything as I was away this weekend so that's been stressful but seems to have calmed down now.

I'm so glad that she's got a referral for assessment. Sounds like she may benefit from slow release Melatonin.

Please do come over to the SN Section, there are some experienced MNers in there that can help to talk you through things like the diagnosis process and helping a preteen girl who potentially has ASD with anxiety and school refusal.

Is anyone around?
Since I last updated things have got worse and I don't know what to do. She's either off school as her friend isn't in and she refuses to go, she's been back today and just played truant all day skipping lessons and running away from teachers, I just can't take anymore of the constant calls from school and they are so fed up with her.

Things have got worse at home also, last week she was in the kitchen making food on a call with her friend and I was tidying up, she started getting really angry about nothing screaming at me, I walked over to the other side of the kitchen to pick some paperwork up that the Gp has printed about support services to read and was going to leave her to calm down when she threw some place mats at me that hit me on the neck and bruised, I just left the room and let her calm down.

Then tonight she had given her sister a little purse with some money in, in 2's and 1's hardly anything. She decided as she was feeling that way out that she wanted it back so was screaming at her, I took it off them both and removed it and said neither would have it if they were arguing and she pushed me into some drawers, I caught my wrist on the corner so it's red and swollen now, then she went crazy. Got some sissors and was cutting the wall, so I tried to get them off her and she threw them at me then started lashing out at me. I just put my arms up to defend myself and she moved onto throwing hammer beads around and clothes and remote controls. Then sat on my bed and refused to move just being obnoxious. I've stayed calm but I don't know what to do, she's now saying she's got a bruise on her foot as I stood on it apparently and a mark on her face where I caught her. I probably did as I had my arms up protecting her from her hitting me, and I don't recall standing on her foot but I didn't intentionally hurt her and there's nothing now so.

I really don't know what to do, she's saying she's going to get herself expelled tomorrow and set fire alarm off. At this point I've told her I don't care anymore and can't cope with it, and not my finest hour but told her she could go to her dads as I can't deal with it anymore. She needs help and I don't know what to do, chased up ref from gp last week and nothing, not accessed counselling through school as not been there to even get it.
She's threatening to report me to police but I'm just keeping calm and ignoring her now she is in her room doing god knows what.

At this moment I don't like her very much and I hate what she is turning into. I haven't confided in anyone about how volatile she is as I don't want people to feel bad about her.

I'm just wondering whether to email school to tell them what's happened. What's even worse is her 8 year old sister is witness to all this.

You need to stop blaming her for behaviour she cannot help so saying things like the school are sick of her/her dad can have her/you're done/the worst part is that her 8 year old sister is watching is only going to make things worse.

You need to change your approach and fast.

Ask the school how exactly they're going to support her to attend and how they'll support her when she's in the building. Tell them exactly what she's struggling with.

Friendships at this age are tricky, especially with girls and it's good she has 1 friend.

Does the school have a well-being/hub/hive type room she can access and attempt school work in there?

You tell her when she behaves like that you're going to have a conversation about how you can both do better next time because from the sounds of it she's kicking off and you've checked out. You be calm but firm that that can't happen again and if it does, rinse and repeat.

Parenting a child with adhd/autism is hard work but you need to listen to your daughter. Behaviour is communication.

She sounds very troubled OP. No advice other than perhaps add a thread in the SN board for someone with more knowledge to guide you.

she's been back today and just played truant all day skipping lessons and running away from teachers, I just can't take anymore of the constant calls from school and they are so fed up with her.

Does she have a room that she can go to at school if she's feeling overwhelmed? Sometimes my DD could make it into school but not all of the lessons.

Things have got worse at home also, last week she was in the kitchen making food on a call with her friend and I was tidying up, she started getting really angry about nothing screaming at me, I walked over to the other side of the kitchen to pick some paperwork up that the Gp has printed about support services to read and was going to leave her to calm down when she threw some place mats at me that hit me on the neck and bruised, I just left the room and let her calm down

My DD can get very angry very quickly. It's not good that she threw things at you but at the point that she was getting angry I find it much easier to retreat to another part of the house.

Then tonight she had given her sister a little purse with some money in, in 2's and 1's hardly anything. She decided as she was feeling that way out that she wanted it back so was screaming at her,

Is she overly possessive with her things? I can see why this escalated quickly. If they were both NT you'd tell the older DD off but as DD2 is diagnosed and DD1 is really struggling right now I would have calmly got DD2 to hand the purse back if I could.

she pushed me into some drawers, I caught my wrist on the corner so it's red and swollen now, then she went crazy. Got some sissors and was cutting the wall, so I tried to get them off her and she threw them at me then started lashing out at me. I just put my arms up to defend myself and she moved onto throwing hammer beads around and clothes and remote controls. Then sat on my bed and refused to move just being obnoxious.

I don't know what to suggest other than trying the crisis team.

At this point I've told her I don't care anymore and can't cope with it, and not my finest hour but told her she could go to her dads as I can't deal with it anymore.

I would, if you can, tell her you were wrong. You love her and you want her with you, in your home. It's taken a long time to try and turn my DD's life around. I've had to give loads of reassurance, love and time.

I'm just wondering whether to email school to tell them what's happened

Definitely contact the school and ask for a meeting. Is she being helped by their SENCO at all?

OP the others have said what I would have said, but also please contact your 8 year old DD's school too and let them know. That way they can just be mindful and supportive for her too.

Must be very tough all round. Make sure you get support for yourself - see GP. Are there any local groups for parents with SEN children or SEMH children? Might be worth asking GP/School if they know of any. Talking to others who are in the same boat can really help, you don't feel so alone.

Didn't want to read and run. It sounds like a lot of anxiety driven behaviour, and I can totally see how worried you must be feeling right now. My son who is 10 and autistic sometimes has similar anxiety driven behaviour. I would highly recommend joining the "Newbold Hope family support group" on Facebook, and to make use of Yvonne Newbold's resources. There are some joining questions, but having read your posts you would definately be able to join - it's not dependent on having a diagnosis. You would be joining a community of parents and carers who understand. Short summary -1. It's not your fault or your daughter's fault that there behaviours are happening. 2. The behaviour is coming from anxiety, not naughtiness. 3. You have to find a way to reduce her anxiety by finding out what is causing it. Reduce as many demands as possible. This is best done with forward planning, but in the moment e.g. with the scissors, it would be safer to allow the wallpaper to get damaged by walking away than to put yourself in a situation where you could have been stabbed (unless she might self harm with them of course). It's OK to use a soft object like a cushion to avoid injury if ylu need to be there to keep her safe. Encourage your younger child to find a safe space to run away to (e.g. bathroom, with some books/ snacks if behaviour is long lasting. For now, it's pretty much an emergency situation over school tomorrow, it is fine for you to to call her in sick on grounds of mental health. Just tell them everything you put here and see how safe they think they could keep the class and teacher if that happened at school! Also look at "the explosive child" and "the B team" facebook group. There are no quick solutions but there are people going through similar situations that care abd may be able to give you ideas to help.

Thanks all, I know I'm not proud of what I said but I have been supporting and trying to help and understand what is happening but it's hard to keep your cool when your being attacked, but yes I know I shouldn't have said it. The problem with retreating is that she just follows me and/or destroys more things. When I try to calm her down that almost makes it worse.

School do have a hub and she was allowed to go in there when she was struggling with lessons but they have revoked that now due to the truanting, as she had the option to go in there but choses to go walk around school. She is annoyed because they have separated her from her friend so choses to truant to spend time with her, she has admitted that. She is almost fixated with this girl.

It is good she has one friend however it's not a great set up, school have warned me about this fairly new friend and issues, this is the 3rd school she has been at due to being expelled and they are not a good combination. I'm not blaming the other girl but they make terrible decisions when they are together. When I said school are fed up with her, what really is the case is that they have lost patience with her when they have tried to support with the hub and I know they shouldn't have.

I will speak to my younger daughter's school to pre warn them as well.

We've just spoken now she is a bit calmer and she has apologised and so have I. I've asked her what she wants to happen and she just says she hates school but doesn't want to move or leave so no real solutions.

Totally agree that her behaviour sounds anxiety driven. Once I accepted that with our DD it changed the way I dealt with her and how I parented her too.