12 year old told me we all like his sibling better

[Iggi999]

So a fight tonight between my sons, not unusual especially during lock down. Older one nips at the younger while watching tv (8 year old does love to talk during tv programmes, I will shush him but his db will tell him to shut up, he's so annoying etc.) Tonight he also told him that no one likes him, he's annoying so no one will want to be his friend.
I didn't see how this began but ds2 kicked ds1 hard, and ds1 then slapped ds2 with his full force on his back.
Dh took his Xbox away for this but he is really upset and says we prefer his sibling, we don't do anything when he hurts him etc. Ds2 blames himself and says "I'm so annoying" and cries about his brother not liking him.
So we probably do seem "nicer" to the younger one but it's so hard not to be telling off a child who says such mean things and uses his force so often. He is twice the size of his little brother which doesn't help.
Sorry am at wits end about what to do. I thought of bringing them together tomorrow to discuss a way forward once they've both calmed down.
I feel so sorry for my little one who takes an awful lot before he's provoked to hit back. And I feel sorry for my older one who is quite awkward socially anyway and I hate the thought that he doesn't feel as loved as he is. I just wish they'd get along.

we nearly always let ds1 pick the movie as he will refuse to watch it if he doesn't like it: I would let them pick equally. If DS1 doesn't want to watch, he doesn't have to. Maybe DS2 is "annoying" his brother because he doesn't like the film or it's not suitable for his age.

Gotta say I was the youngest and was very skilled at going to my Mum in tears to get my siblings in trouble. Always equal always fear (unless physical strength is involved). I used to hear the 'you love them more than me' quite a lot, but you have to show that you are scrupulously fair. Sometimes older children are held to higher standards than younger ones and it feels very unfair to them - when normally they are expected to be more responsible than the younger ones.

You can't always know the rights and wrongs after an altercation between them - in that situation be as equal as possible. A younger one can be very good at goading a older child, nudge, nudge, nudge till they lash out and get in trouble. Watch out!

Chiccroissant good point I will avoid carrying it on. Ds1 has moaned at me every day for (what is it now? 11 weeks?) and I suppose tonight was just the straw that broke my back. He doesn't confine his bad mood to his brother, it's pretty much everything.
He has just been down and said sorry for shouting so that is a start.
Farmertom thank you for giving me that perspective on it all. I don't think you should be too hard on yourself for mistakes of the past.
NanaLisa thanks for the laugh!

A plan sounds good OP, today may have been a bit grim but onwards and upwards for tomorrow! We all have bad days and sometimes they are family-wide on the same day.

Cross post there - constant whining is really wearing, you have my absolute sympathy there. He seems to be reflecting on his actions anyway.

@BlueBirdGreenFence

You're trying hard to hide it but you can still hear the difference in warmth you have towards both children when describing them.

One is less difficult, not as rough, more sociable, more compliant etc etc. But that's because he is younger. The oldest is acting age appropriately and being unfairly punished for it because you're expecting him to act like an 8 year old.

Oh that's a painful thing to read! I do feel warmer towards someone who is nice to me - that doesn't mean I love them more, but not being hurt is nice. Someone who criticises you, is negative about everything shouts at you saying you're horrible, you ruin their life - regularly - is not surely just acting in an age appropriate way? I've known plenty of 12 year olds who didn't behave like this. I will never love him any less but by god I wish he was nicer sometimes. I am going to try to give him more opportunities to be nice, so to speak, by spending more time with him away from his sibling.

I think they would be happier if there wasn't such an age gap between them. I do blame myself for this, though I know it wasn't really my fault (had miscarriages). They've never really been at the same stage at the same time.

I think its worth remembering that you wont always see/hear every interaction between them so may miss things your youngest does to your eldest before he ends up taking the blame. There was an even bigger gap between me and my brother and when I was 13 I was horrible to him at times ( sounds very similar to your story) and my mum used to give me into trouble all the time about it, saying I was being mean and he was younger and didnt deserve it. She would have been right often, Its hard to describe but I think going through puberty I was quick to irritate/anger and my brother knew just how to annoy me without anyone really noticing untill I lashed out. I also used to get annoyed about having to do things I didnt want to and then him being happy about it. So forcing him to come down and watch tv together when he would rather be alone then him having to sit through what he clearly sees as his brother being a constant nuisance will be very frustrating. So watch tv with your youngest, then take the eldest out, play a video game with him etc, so his time with the family is doing what he wants and not having to put up with in his eyes his 'annoying brother'

Its definitely a phase though we moved through it in a couple of years and have got on great ever since.

Four years isn't really that big an age gap, OP.

Your family dynamics are muddled up but I'm sure you and your dh will be able to resolve this with patience and insight.

Is your dh a hands on dad? How does he treat you and the boys, is he warm and respectful to you all? Does he favour one boy over the other?

What's your mood like, are you content with your dh and work? All these factors play a role in family dynamics.

I'd probably start with a bit of love bombing and one on one time with both ds. Then have a zero tolerance rule regarding any violence and rudeness. Teach your ds to see the other person's perspective even if they disagree.

@Iggi999

I think they would be happier if there wasn't such an age gap between them. I do blame myself for this, though I know it wasn't really my fault (had miscarriages). They've never really been at the same stage at the same time.

I don't think it's age thing, OP. My sister and I were 14 months apart (I don't think my parents planned number two....) and fought like cats and dogs from the age of around 8/9 until adulthood. Actually I think it's worse when close in age. We were fighting over things like who "stole" clothes from the other etc on top of the general sibling arguments over being annoying etc! (plus, both hitting the hormone nightmare age at the same time...) In my experience, siblings with a larger gap seem to get along better!

How do you respond if ds1 tells you ds2 is being annoying? I remember feeling that my parents wouldn't intervene in my brothers' behaviour, so I would try to manage them, and as I didn't have an adult's authority or emotional maturity this often led to us hitting each other.

If you make a point of pulling ds2 up on bad behaviour, or explaining to ds1 why you aren't sanctioning something he thinks you should, ds1 should learn that he can rely on you to deal with his brother, so he doesn't "have to" do it himself.

I've been the older kid in this situation, I had a younger brother who it seemed could literally do no wrong. Even now as adults in our 30's we still joke that he is the favourite. It was just so blatantly obvious from my perspective. He would wind me up and pick and pick and pick, and when I bit back, I got the bollocking. He got off Scott free. Because he was the youngest. He didn't understand. He didn't mean it. He was just playing/talking/whatever. Dont let him wind you up. Dont let him get to you. And so on. His behaviour was never addressed, only mine. Tbh I've let a lot of it go over the years, and our relationship is ok now, but it frustrated the hell out of me that my parents sided with him every single time. I stopped speaking to my mum for several months over one incident when I was in my early 20's. Dont let that happen with your kids.

I suspect all siblings have thought that the other sibling(s) was / were the preferred one at various times. My dc are 18,21 and 24 and still bring it up on a regular basis. My sibling and I still reckon the eldest / youngest had it easier / harder depending where you are in the birth order.

In this case though, it would seem that your elder ds has a point. They were fighting - by your re-telling of the story ds2 was the first in terms of talking inappropriately and first in terms of resorting to physical violence, and yet ds 1 had his X-box taken away ?

I'm guessing your ds1 is also coping with puberty ? It plays havoc with their hormones and their self esteem and defensiveness and aggression. Remember he's a frightened little boy inside that growing body. You've got a few years of this to go - don't push him away now.

My kids accuse me of favouritism because they know it throws me off balance.

I have the same age gap and I know what you mean about the size difference but it's hard for ds1 to tone down his outbursts when ds2 can kick full power and not get into trouble. I'm an oldest child so know that feeling when younger siblings emotionally manipulate the parents and make older ones look bad.

My younger one is 13 and it's much better now. They don't get physical and choose to spend time together sometimes gaming or whatever.

I'm glad that you took the criticism well.

Another tip for being fair- treat dc2 like you treated dc1 at the same age. I'm very guilty of babying dc2 and have to consciously think about how dc1 was at the same age and expect the same.

I'd probably start with a bit of love bombing and one on one time with both ds. Then have a zero tolerance rule regarding any violence and rudeness. Teach your ds to see the other person's perspective even if they disagree.
This is really helpful, thank you.
And thanks as well for the insights about older/younger/bigger/smaller age gaps.
DH is very involved although I'd still be "default parent" and spend more time with them. He definitely spends more time with ds1 (football) leaving me with ds2. Ds2 is invited but not interested.
Some of ds1's behaviour is out of proportion to what is going on and I'm speaking to his school about this. He is hyper so much of the time. Might just (just!) be puberty but I think maybe something else going on.
I have appreciated the chance to complain on here and get advice and certainly feeling a lot more calm now.
Might give the homeschooling a Miss tomorrow and do some fun stuff instead, if that won't seem too much of a reward.

OP, just read all of the thread and you are doing amazing. No one can advise accurately, because they don't have your two individual sons combined with you and your husband, who together make a very unique family dynamic, but there are definitely loads of perspectives here to help. The fact you come on here and ask for help, and are so objective, accepting all comments including those that some would perceive as criticisms, really well, shows you will be absolutely fine going forward. Your children will calm down and you'll make sure it doesnt escalate out of control, I can tell. My only advice is to also check the boys' diet, as some foods and drinks can exaggerate behavioural or looming puberty related issues. The 1:1 fun time will hopefully work. But don't be disappointed if they just want to do their own thing or they just don't think you're cool enough to enjoy that time with. The only negative I saw in your posts was the one about stopping your ds2 from expressing his enjoyment of a film. Maybe let the boys pick one film each for a film marathon, and nicely ask that ds2 is quieter during ds1's choice and in turn ds1 puts up with ds2 when watching his choice. Add treats too. Maybe give extras for good behaviour. My only other bit of advice is to 'listen' to each of your childrens' legitimate concerns, away from each other. Then ask them for realistic solutions and/or ideas. I always do that. They start to see for themselves what theyee like. Good luck and enjoy the day off from homeschooling. I've worked and so my daughter has to homeschool herself, at just turned 11. Your boys will be ok after a day off.

Thank you for your really kind post @thenamesarealltaken I really appreciate it.

I know my post was probably hard to read. I do think it needed said to you though. But also, be kind to yourself. None of us are perfect. The fact that you're thinking about the issue and taking on board the answers shows that you're a good mum. It wouldn't even cross a crap parent's mind in the first place .

You sound like a lovely person and mum OP.

One more thing. I find it helps to talk to them about how the situation makes you feel in a simple, non-dramatic but personable way so they they see you as a human being with her own feelings, limitations and frustrations.

Alternatively ask them, if they had babies, how would they solve the pickle?

I do that with my two and if nothing else it's a little bit amusing how they are trying to bend their minds to put themselves in mum's shoes and be fair on 'their babies'

@Nanalisa60
Sorry but that made me laugh

Wicked I know

I'm late to this thread but I was the eldest in a similar scenario, and in my 40s, not only do I still resent my mum especially for what was, whether she likes it or not, favouritism, but my brother and I have no relationship at all. The constant excuses for his behaviour did him no benefit growing up, he still needs to be treated as the golden child by everyone that he meets, goes through jobs and friends like water, expects to always be in the right and has an incredible temper if called out.

It was small things just like this, where I was always unfairly punished, always expected to be the bigger person, always expected to behave perfectly no matter what the younger did that made me just give up interacting with him.

I think all siblings feel some of this, I'm just saying that I think bad sibling relationships are very often made much worse by how parents handle this stuff, and if you are very obviously warmer and softer on your youngest, you won't be doing their later relationship any favours.

Also late to this thread, but like a few others I'm the older one, with an 18-month gap. @katmarie I had this too: it felt like my brother got away with a lot, by deliberately winding me up, doing things which he knew full well pushed my buttons; and if I protested, I heard "he's little", "just ignore him", and on one teenage occasion "stop being so fucking sensitive". If I ever retaliated, I was always punished, sometimes in a really big way. And if I did nothing while he wound me up, I was then "letting him bully me", so I couldn't win either way; indeed, it felt as if I was being complicit. I also found it really unfair if phrases such as "stop bickering you two" were addressed to both of us, because more often than not, I'd want to reply "he started it", which was true.

When we met up more recently, he said to me "wow, you're assertive now". Indeed; because I wasn't allowed to be assertive with him when we were younger.