12 year old told me we all like his sibling better

[Iggi999]

So a fight tonight between my sons, not unusual especially during lock down. Older one nips at the younger while watching tv (8 year old does love to talk during tv programmes, I will shush him but his db will tell him to shut up, he's so annoying etc.) Tonight he also told him that no one likes him, he's annoying so no one will want to be his friend.
I didn't see how this began but ds2 kicked ds1 hard, and ds1 then slapped ds2 with his full force on his back.
Dh took his Xbox away for this but he is really upset and says we prefer his sibling, we don't do anything when he hurts him etc. Ds2 blames himself and says "I'm so annoying" and cries about his brother not liking him.
So we probably do seem "nicer" to the younger one but it's so hard not to be telling off a child who says such mean things and uses his force so often. He is twice the size of his little brother which doesn't help.
Sorry am at wits end about what to do. I thought of bringing them together tomorrow to discuss a way forward once they've both calmed down.
I feel so sorry for my little one who takes an awful lot before he's provoked to hit back. And I feel sorry for my older one who is quite awkward socially anyway and I hate the thought that he doesn't feel as loved as he is. I just wish they'd get along.

The talking is all related to the show - haha that's so funny, look out! He's going to fall - that kind of thing. I guess I'm used to it. And think a bit of patience is called for to be honest. But I will make him be silent and see if this improves things. And toughen up on how I deal with ds2 in general.

I was going to say all kids say this but in this instance the 8 year old - who was actually violent first - got less of a punishment, so he may have a point

Help your eldest feel valued, accepted and appreciated. Start saying Thankyou when there’s the opportunity to thank him. Be kind to him. Still have boundaries but deliver them kindly

They used to be best friends. Well basically until the younger one started speaking

This sounds so familiar, DD loved DS as a baby/toddler, then he started answering back.

Porridge that's a good plan and I will do it, thank you.
And Bernadette you're not wrong - I remember being brushed off by my older sister but she was never as cruel to me. They are apart mostly but a bit of time in one room (without fighting) would be nice. Much of my time with ds1 pre lockdown was out of the house - we'd go out to eat or go to a skate park or something, and that all stopped obviously. Now I've become his teacher aka jailor and he bloody hates me!
He isn't exercising enough and needs to let off some energy so tomorrow will insist rather than ask that he comes out with me.

have you tried to take what my mother like to call the 'UN approach'? Catch both of them when they are relaxed, retrace the 'incident' as if you were a police woman, make it fun. State what you had observed but be honest about the bits you didn't see. Ask for witness. Ask each 'defendant' to explain what happened. Then ask them what they think is the fair thing to do. By this point both children would have let off some steam and able to discuss. if they cannot come up with a solution, which they most likely will not, then you ask them what do they except you to do when they don't know what's fair themselves. ask them to discuss and come back to you the next day.
Repeat this method at each and every incident. Eventually they will come up with one answer they are both happy with and will automatically settle after complaining.
Do everything yet do nothing.

Home education has made our relationship worse. He gets on much better with his dad who doesn't ask him to tidy his room or do his work half as much as me.

Ds2 over sensitive to criticism so probably gets away with more. He will cry sometimes even as a younger sibling l can really see your older child's point. younger sibling winds him up, they both are violent younger sibling cries and doesn't get punished? And gets felt sorry for?

I don't agree ds2 needs to be silent.
I have a kid who makes plenty of noise himself but also goes off on anyone who makes a noise.
We have strict rules - if it's a really special programme, anyone can request that people are as quiet as possible, but you cannot insist on silence whilst you are sitting in a communal room. On the other hand, if someone is talking and it's annoying, you are completely within your rights to respectfully ask that they quieten down, and if you are respectfully asked to quieten down then you accept that your behaviour is disturbing someone and try to quieten down.

The key features are an expectation of respect on both sides. And the noise sensitive kid now has a TV in his room for times when silent watching us more important to him than company.

That's interesting roastedsaltedpeanut
I did try the "you can only speak if you're holding the " but ds1 refused to do it.

So your youngest child is consistently incredibly irritating, and is basically allowed to annoy his elder brother until he reaches breaking point, then the little one is violent so the older one strikes back, and then the little one cries and the older one, who's had his TV watching time ruined, gets punished and the younger one, who started all this, gets off scott free? How is that fair?

8 is absolutely old enough to keep quiet while watching TV with the family. When he asks you why his big brother doesn't like him, do you explain the aspects of his behaviour that cause this reaction?

There is a lack of respect yes, I don't mind anyone asking something but it's never done respectfully - it's always - shut up, or what's this rubbish programme, there's nothing to watch (we nearly always let ds1 pick the movie as he will refuse to watch it if he doesn't like it). Ironically ds1 has tics and sometimes makes repeated noises that can be really annoying - he has no control over this and obviously we never tell him it's annoying but he's no patience for anyone else!
The crying by ds2 - I don't just mean he cries when told off, he cries yesterday for example out of the blue when we were doing schoolwork asking why ds1 always found him annoying.
Am really failing at this whole parenting/wfh/homeschooling lark at the moment.

@SomeoneElseEntirelyNow that's just not true, he is not consistently incredibly annoying.
He is, if anything, a bit of a goody too shoes and a people pleaser. Clearly not a brother pleaser though. Laughing during a comedy show is an example of his annoyingness.

Have you told him why? Tbh this sort of behaviour can be really offputting, i would really work on getting him to stop. It's likely to hold him back, does DS8 have many friends?

Being sent to bed isn't getting off scott free.
I take ds1's console controller as it's the thing he likes most and he usually behaves better to get it back.

What does your husband say?

The talking is all related to the show - haha that's so funny, look out! He's going to fall - that kind of thing.

That's quite annoying though. He needs to learn to be a bit more considerate. What else does your older ds do?

Your insistence on painting your ds2 as a little angel who can do no wrong shines through your posts, op.
Maybe next time he asks why his brother finds him so annoying you could explain exactly why, it might do him a power of good.

They were both sent upstairs, and (post talk) ds2 has been sent to bed. The noise that was made when ds1 hit ds2 reverberated round the house. I thought he was injured. So probably didn't jump to telling him off due to the tears. But he had listened to a stream of shut up, idiot, and no wonder you've no friends for the previous 20 mins.
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Did you say anything to DS1 at any point during these 20 minutes he was so nasty to his little brother?
I had a similar situation growing up and it's so damaging. My parents didn't really get involved and let the mean behaviour from the older one continue, while also outwardly saying how bad they felt for the little ones etc.
Maybe in future you could ask little one to stay quiet during show, and if older one starts being rude, tell him straight away, that's rude don't speak to your brother like that or we'll switch the show off etc. But also say to little brother that it's annoying to speak through show etc.

Not trying to be critical and really feel for you OP. Also, I was the older sibling in this scenario and am now wracked with guilt as an adult and wish my parents had stopped me being so mean! But maybe they tried 🤷‍♀️

I wouldn't rehash it all tomorrow, it will just reinforce the unfair treatment IMO.

Just set down the rules guidelines going forward, including penalties for bad behaviour and stick to them. Do need to be equivalent penalties, losing a game controller seems worse than being sent to bed, and enforced on both parties whether they cry or not!

They need to be civil to each other, but no matter how well you want them to get on that's their decision and not yours. Lockdown can be stressful which is why I'd favour a reset rather than a rehash, but is there any reason why this is triggering for you as well (apart from being frustrating to deal with!)? We can only go on what is written here but it does seem a bit unfair against the eldest.

This sounds very familiar to me (unfortunately). DS17 has kept up what feels like a near constant stream of 'shut up, you're an idiot, you're a moron' to DS13 for many years now. However it is a lot better now than it was when they were 8 & 12. DS17 will stop when asked (mostly), and they have a lot more good times and conversations together. Also a lot of time if I call out DS17 when he's telling DS13 he's a moron, then DS13 defends him saying 'it's just bants'.

The big screamy horrible ones when it all goes badly wrong are now a thing of the past, which I'm very grateful for. So hang in there it should get easier as the years pass. I think it started getting a bit better once eldest started going out more with friends around age 13.

I still think my DS17 is far too negative towards his brother and puts him down too much, but it's progress compared to how it was when mine were the same age as yours.

Also to add, I had very low self esteem and I was very jealous of my younger siblings. I loved them so so much but I was so mean to them growing up it hurts my heart 😢 I didn't really realise I was so awful think much later. I really relate to your older DS.

You all make me realise what a terrible mother I was, when one of mine use to say you love him better then me I would always say absolutely rubbish I can’t stand the pair of you!! That always shut them up.

He wouldn't care if we switched the show off, he would be happy to be back in his room with his console and his iPad. We're trying to bring them down together - maybe that is the mistake, I watched a movie the other night with ds1 alone and that was fine.
I take the comments re ds2. I think it's hard if you haven't seen their behaviour in person to see why one is not being viewed as as culpable as the other. But I see this could become self-fulfilling.
Farmertom I've had a friend say something similar to me (about her older sibling making her life miserable and parents not stepping in) so I have maybe tried to avoid doing that, and gone too far the other way.
I have a bit of a plan now for what to do and it will involve changes for both of them.
I appreciate all the responses including the ones that think I'm doing it all wrong

I can see why the older one feels this way. If he is losing his games console, the younger one should lose something equivalent.

You're trying hard to hide it but you can still hear the difference in warmth you have towards both children when describing them.

One is less difficult, not as rough, more sociable, more compliant etc etc. But that's because he is younger. The oldest is acting age appropriately and being unfairly punished for it because you're expecting him to act like an 8 year old.