How do I nip this attitude in the bud without going totally overboard?

[MeanAger]

Which I suspect I just have done

DS11 (almost 12) has been testing me recently. He is now off school for summer (starting secondary in September) and I've been allowing a bit more freedom so he can see friends and get out of the house. One of his friends (same age) has been having problems recently and has a bit of an attitude issue and I have noticed that when DS spends time with this friend he tries to get away with the same attitude with me. This evening he swore at his younger brother and after days of him goading and goading his brother (has suspected SEN and gets very upset about even mild teasing) I snapped and told DS to go and get his pyjamas on and go to bed. (IT was around 5.45pm) he just said "no" with a "what are you going to do About it?" tone and looked at me to see what my next move was. (And that's when I realised how stupid I was) I told him he had a choice of either going to bed now or being grounded for the next week. He refused to choose so I said the decision was now out of his hands and I would choose his punishment and reminded him of a couple of things he had hoped to go to during the summer and the pocket money he will expect every month. He said "so are you saying you are grounding me for the whole summer because I won't go to bed now?" I said I will decide as I please what punishment he will have because he had the choice and refused to take it. It's all ridiculous, I know!! I shouldn't have even got into discussion with him. Anyway he stormed off upstairs, shouted something I couldn't make out at his brother and stomped about his room. He came down about half an hour later looking very remorseful and apologised to me and his brother. But he always does that. I've told him that I can't really believe he is sorry for his behaviour rather than just trying to avoid punishment because he keeps on repeating it. I've said I want to trust him to behave when he is out with his friends but that I can't while he is still showing such attitude at home and if he expects to be seeing his friends without me hanging over his shoulder then he needs to show me I can trust him. He nodded and looked appropriately chastised but like I said, this is his standard response and then he'll do something again tomorrow or the day after as if it never happened.

Am I being too harsh? Sending him to bed was ridiculous, I know that and regretted it almost instantly. What should I be doing to get rid of this attitude before it really takes off? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Imo the thing to avoid is a situation where you threaten/dish out a harsh punishment, he then responds rudely, then you escalate the punishment, then he responds, then you escalate ad infinitum. The problem with this situation is that in some strange twisted way it's him calling the shots, even if it's in the direction of making his life more uncomfortable.

Sometimes teens almost seem to crave that: they feel hard done by because of hormones, so get some validation for their feelings by engineering a situation where they are hard done by. Don't fall for it. It's not his hormones that should be ruling the roost: it's your experience and level head.

What I have found is that often the quiet stern telling off works just as well as actual punishments. Though it may not seem so, most teens actually want to please you; it's just that they have to try to become independent at the same time. They like to see that you hold the reins and cannot be manipulated.

Secondly, I have found that once you have dished out the punishment that should be it. Do not react to his reaction to the punishment and be tempted to escalate: just stick to your first bid. (Though if you find that it was, in fact, ridiculous, you can rewind the whole situation and start again- as long as you do it calmly and in a way that shows you are in charge- laughing at your own overreaction can actually help here as it shows confidence; this does not mean that he is allowed to forget he behaved badly).

Thirdly, the same argument applies here as to quarrels between spouses: do not generalise! In fact, it applies even more here because teenagers are naturally insecure and prone to wild generalisations anyway, nothing easier than to make them believe that there is no point in trying because they are intrinsically bad people.

So if he was unkind to his brother, do not generalise this into a sign that he is a generally untrustworthy person who cannot be trusted out with his mates: punish him for being unkind to his brother. And leave it there.

When he apologises, accept the apology. Else, where is the point of him ever showing remorse? Teens are dramatic and emotional: if you let him believe there is no point in being sorry because you won't believe it's real, then his response is likely to be that he might as well not bother. That's not the path you want him to go down.

Sorry: see I should have said pre-teens rather than teens. In that case, multiply everything I said by 10. Pre-teens ime are even more dramatic and emotional than teens.

OP Cory has it bang to rights, that's great advice.

Excellent advice from @corythatwas. I would only add that IME remorse is genuine - hormones mean they get caught up in anger but once they've calmed down they can often be quite self-aware and genuinely appalled at how they've behaved, and you need to reassure them that they're not horrible people (while recognising the behaviour is unacceptable.) And the other thing is - for me, anyway - i recognise that I can blow up with them too (I have my own hormone issues going on, thanks perimenopause) so sometimes rather than dish out a consequence at the time and go over the top, i tell them I need to consider what the consequences will be and will let them know. Generally, a short time out and a call to DH is enough time for me to get perspective back and for them to see more clearly why I've been angry. Win-win.

Thank you all, this is all really helpful.

I find confiscating devices far more effective than grounding. It's also easier to negotiate the return of them (for extra housework and a profound apology for example)

With grounding you are somewhat locked into longer time scales (days) whereas with devices it can be hours, and it can all get out of hand.

I find that when attitude slips like this, I will take a moment over dinner to say - a reminder that in this house I do expect you to speak reasonably to each other, and that means not swearing.
I also expect you to have enough self control not to wind the other person up.

So just a reminder that while we are all at home together over the holidays, those 2 things are not acceptable.

Devices are dependant on reasonable behaviour, so if you can't stick to these things, I reserve the right to remove devices. (this gives you the freedom to do it as you need to and not get suckered into the letter of the law).
In practice I would do a sort of 3 strikes and you're out , warning, reminder of consequence, warning and remove them - tell them to go out on their bike/go to their room/go and kick a football round, but to go away from his brother and leave him alone.
Then if he continues remove devices.

I also echo all that cory says, lots of wisdom in there.

I find ds is awful, annoying, speaking horribly and then half an hour later he is fine. Once he has apologised I do let it go and start again, he is young and still working out how to deal with hormones, emotions, anger etc

I find that when attitude slips like this, I will take a moment over dinner to say - a reminder that in this house I do expect you to speak reasonably to each other, and that means not swearing.
I also expect you to have enough self control not to wind the other person up.

That's a really good idea! Thank you. It's not heat of the moment during a squabble or anything. Just calm and not directed at anyone specifically. I like it.

Oh, and ds is FOUL when he first comes in from school, and then on and off until he has had dinner, then he becomes my lovely ds again.
Just like he was when a toddler, hunger dictating mood.

Mean - I have done it with my 3 Dcs 2 weeks ago as it was getting so bad. Each one had a thing to work on - ds winding dd2 up, dd1 mouthy attitude, dd2 whining/drama llama behaviour.
They are 14, 12 and 9
I am putting a note on the calendar every day for every child positive, neutral or negative.
They don't have to be perfect, if there is a dispute that is fine, as long as they resolve it in a normal and OK way.
Every Sunday I will assess, more negatives than positives = no screens at all for one week.

They have all picked up massively. It took me taking back control in a calm way. I have hardly even needed to remind them, just the occasional word. Each week we have about 5 positives , one neutral and one negative each.

I like that idea too!

I've only got a 2 year old, but found the advice on here so good I've saved it for when the time comes,

Great advice

Picking up on your comment about feeling the apology is to avoid punishment - I would thank him for his apology and accept it...but the consequence remains

Love this thread me - peri mother just had a bust up with Pre teen ds11. Thanks all

Placemarking to come back to this - 12 yo DS is pulling every string I have.... lazy selfish little shit one minute, very loving, charming and helpful the next. And I thought I had hormone issues!

Some great advice here. I think the thing about this age is they feel emotions quite strongly (something to do with the development of the teenage brain) yet they have not yet developed the skills to process these emotions. I always think about them being like toddlers who throw tantrums when they don't get their own way.