8 year old DD hygiene/behaviour

[DontOpenDeadInside]

Dd2 is 8 (9 in June). She's always been difficult, had counseling sessions at school for over a year due to low self esteem/anxiety. But she is just so stubborn. She refuses to brush her teeth, has now not brushed them for 3/4 days (I've lost count). Other than to pin her down there's no way to make her. I tell her what will happen to her teeth if she doesn't look after them, she doesn't care. I tell her she's not allowed sweet things if she's not brushing them... Doesn't care.

I find it hard to punish her when she is naughty. I cannot send her to her room as she shares with dd3. She doesn't care about toys etc. The only thing she is bothered about is the pc and the Roblox game. But if i ban her from it, she just follows me around saying "i bored" "there's nothing to do" etc driving me crazy. I suggest things but she says no to everything.

She won't brush her hair most days so goes to school looking a right mess (which isn't good for her self esteem)
I'm just lost on what to do. She's not interested in spending time with me. I offer to play board games etc but she says no, and the few times we do it ends up with her crying because she's not winning. When i tell her off for stuff she cries and says "no-one loves me etc" "you like dd3 better than me"
Just tonight i told her to do her teeth, she said no so i said well no sweets or pc tomorrow and she swore at me! We are a non swearing house so that's pretty bad. So now she's not allowed on the pc for a week, so I've got 1 week of her moaning she's bored. She would refuse to do chores (again i can't physically force her) just nothing seems to get through to her.

I make her sound awful, but she's such a loving, intelligent girl when she's not in one of her moods, which are getting more and more often.

Your idea of love bombing sounds great. I have found a cuddle cam diffuse tension a lot.
Can you find out the root of her anxiety and address that (am assuming bullying).
She sounds like you can work with her still so you are right to do something before it is too late.

Get rid of computer access also until she behaves better.

You've taken the pc away for a week. Would it work to say that for each day she brushes her hair and cleans her teeth you will knock one day off the ban?

I'm with Wolfie, it sounds like sensory issues.
Forcing her is a dreadful idea. You can make things non-negotiable without force.
Lots of punishment will not work either. You cannot punish a child into behaving.

Try to find out what the root cause of the problem is. A lot of children with sensory issues have huge issues with toothpaste because of the way it foams and the flavour. There is a brand called Oranurse which has the full requirement of fluoride but it has not flavour and it doesn't foam. You can also get a three-headed toothbrush that brushes the whole tooth in one go so she can brush in half the time.

Try to work with her to encourage her to give this a go, with a sticker chart to reinforce it.

Completely off topic but a friend's 8yo DD was being inappropriately contacted by an adult through the ROBLOX game, please think about deleting it.

Sanctions are always a winner with my DS - he knows I will do exactly as I say as nobody is more stubborn than me.

Sometimes she will come and snuggle up in bed, just the 2 of us. We colour in together now and then. I offer for her to walk the dog with me but she says no.

The counselor sadly left the school and they felt that to give her a new one would mean her starting all over again, so she no longer has one.

I'm glad someone else agrees with me about not pinning her down to do her teeth with her anxiety, i think (well know really) that that would make her worse.

I've not tried chewable toothbrushes, that's a good idea thanks. I've tried fun character toothbrushes/electric toothbrushes/those purple dye tablets that show you the bacteria/showing her pics of rotting teeth/explaining what will happen/stickers for brushing with treat at the end. Nothing seems to work.

Her hair isn't as bad as the teeth, i can usually run a brush through it in a few strokes so it's not that bad.

All DDs are treat the same BUT dd3 is usually pretty good so has far less punishments than dd2, so in dd2s eyes maybe she is thinking i like her better.

@DontOpenDeadInside - could you take her to the dentist, but talk to him yourself first (phone/email) to tell him about her refusing to brush her teeth, and get him to be properly stern with her?

When she is following you round, whinging about being bored, don't try to entertain her - just point out calmly that it is her own fault she is bored, and carry on with whatever you are doing. Boredom is the consequence of her bad behaviour, so you shouldn't be trying to mitigate it, IMO.

I can't believe some people here are saying to pin your DD down to clean her teeth and brush her hair! OP, my DD1 is 10, and I've been through similar over the past few years - things are starting to improve, but I still have to monitor her teeth cleaning and washing really closely. I've tried physical force once and it is not the right way to go! I am convinced that a lot of extra one on one time, care and attention is the way. You need to try to work out why she finds this all hard, and some of the PPs may be right that she has sensory issues. I wonder if my DD is somewhere on the autism spectrum and I'm in the process of trying to find out. Perhaps start by googling and reading a lot about sensory issues and ASD - even if it isn't relevant to your DD there are lots of useful ideas out there for strategies to use in difficult situations.

With regard to the "I'm bored" thing - I think that's probably a price you need to pay for a month or two until she starts to find other things to fill up her time other than screens. From the small amount I know, it would definitely be a good idea to get rid of the computer games.

Good luck.

Sorry but I too think there's something neuro atypical going on here. 8 year olds shouldn't be anxious. I think there's a sensory issue. Autism/ADHD. Push for referral. Very, very hard.

Meanwhile acept and love. Chewable toothbrushes - yes.

No bullying that I'm aware of, she's pretty well liked in school.
For a bit background info, she was diagnosed with precocious puberty last year after starting to develop and she had her period 2 weeks before she turned 8. She now has 3 monthly injections to stop it. I think most of her anxiety/self esteem is related to this as she was going through puberty and was just too young to process it all (the year before she was diagnosed was hell, constant tantrums/screaming fits/refusing school/self harm/wishing she was dead) which is why she started counseling. I hope this clarifies why i refuse to force her.

I do wonder what else is going on. It isn't as simple as she doesn't want to do as she's told. I am NO expert but be aware that some issues like autism, sensory problems etc present differently in girls and are under diagnosed as a result.
What's the new acronym for CAHMS? Any chance of a referral? I would want to know why she's refusing. Ever had an ed psych involved?

I wouldn't pin a child down to brush their teeth, that's awful There must be other things to try before getting to that stage. Even if it's a case of sitting in the bathroom with them and refusing to go anywhere or do anything until the task has been done.

I would also have a serious, respectful grown up chat with her about why she doesn't like to brush her teeth. To try and get to the bottom of it. That way you can actually get to the source of the problem and solve it rather than just forcing it and losing her trust and respect.

She needs a CAMHS referral via your GP. You must insist. If she is seen carefully note all meetings and send them a written note of what has been discussed and agreed. You must keep a,written record of all dealings.

She was referred to CAHMS, but because she had already started counseling with school, they wouldn't do both and the school one was for as long as she needed it whereas the Cahms one was for 10 sessions only, plus she already had a relationship with the school counselor, so we chose the school one. Is Cahms the way to get a diagnosis (if that's what's needed) DD is very different around other people, her teacher is the senco and has no issues with her.

Do you mean she acts up at home but not at school? That's very common. Some children hold it together for the school day and then completely lose it at home (where it is safe to do so.)

I too am aghast as the idea of pinning her down. That is an appalling suggestion.

I think the posters who think you just need to be tougher have not come across a child on whom the normal behaviour techniques do not work and are arguing from their perspective of having children with whom those behaviour techniques do work.

Sometimes children really are challenging and would be so for any parent.

I agree with the pp, she should get a referral to CAHMS. She has a lot going on with precocious puberty happening.

Best of luck OP.

Another one flagging sensory issues at least. Please don't rely on a Place2be counsellor to be experienced enough to be aware of these issues. TBH, I feel like organisations like these arise only because of the lack of funding for CAMHS.

I'd read a little into girls and ASD, just because you mention self harm issues. But hair and teeth issues, def. sensory....

For anyone suggesting 'force her', you've never hsd a truly oppositional child!

Yes, CAMHS provides diagnosis. Your GP needs to refer. Get them to note your concerns. Sensory issues, etc., possible autism/ADHD.

My DD was never a problem at school op. High performing, quiet and a bit quirky. Never realised there were problems until her GCSE's when she started self harming (cutting, pillscandcanorexia). She'd never been any trouble at all. She had develops anxiety and depression. After several psychiatric consultations she was diagnosed with ADHD. It all fell into place. INSIST it is sorted before her teen years.

Every concern in writing. Record everything. Everything registered mail. Insist she is seen by the CAMHS psychiatrist. Counselling does not diagnose. It is complementary to diagnosable issues.

Place2be can't fiagnose. Got sensory issues, you'd need an occupational therapist. You could try a referral for that also. Depending on where you are it may be quicker.

I was coming on to say sensory processing problem too

When i say self harm, i mean picking scabs. If there were no scabs to pick, she'd scratch until there was one. Her poor forehead is covered in scars because i couldn't stop her. (She'd do it in bed) and this is now giving her image issues. I feel so sad for her. Does anyone have any reading suggestions on sensory issues? I'm not familiar with SN. What can a diagnosis do for DD? Will it just give me coping strategies? Or does it mean other things? I'm reluctant to have her "labelled" but willing to try some strategies.
Thank you for all your replies, certainly food for thought.

My DD has sensory issues (and ASD) Hair and teeth were the main refusals.
Eventually we found a Tangle Tease hair brush that she will tolerate. She is 12 now and still struggles with brushing, so I do it for her with detangling spray. It's not her favourite morning task but she just about tolerates it now.
Teeth wise, the main culprit was toothpaste...the taste of it. I bought half of Tescos toothpaste aisle and we set about finding one she liked. We had success so I bought shares in that brand and tooth brushing is now fine.
Face washing with a flannel has also been an issue so she now uses wipes as the texture is more suitable for her.

Can't believe people are suggesting you hold down an anxious nearly nine year old and forcibly brush their teeth for them . Apart from the fact that using physical force on a child is just unintelligent and desperate and imo plain wrong, it is hardly going to change the dd's perspective about these necessary tasks is it?

And ignore the posters criticising your parenting op, presumably you wd have mentioned if this had been an issue with your other dcs.

Ime, and having had a quick look on Google, this is the age when quite a few kids go through a phase where hygiene, well, isn't exactly their top priority!

My dd went through exactly the same thing and it used to drive me spare! I got really anxious about it but it was just a phase. Now she is nearly 14, I can't keep her out of the shower!!

The only advice I can give is try and make the experiences as pleasant as possible (not to mollycoddle but because it is what worked for us!) So we bought nice bath bombs, tangle teaser and did all the hygiene stuff in the eve when we had time (avoid piling more pressure on during stressed mornings). Bought an egg timer for teeth brushing competitions, read stories in the bath, did sat night conditioner comb through in front of film etc. Other fun stuff: plaque disclosing tablets and following a hair plaiting tutorial on You tube, doing your own teeth and hair as same time as dcs and acknowledging that sometimes it's a bore but putting music on and getting on with it together nonetheless! Probably easier said than done with three kids but maybe worth a go!

This too shall pass!

I wouldn't force her either. What's that teaching her in the long term? That if someone doesn't get their own way they can physically make someone do something against their will. Not a good life lesson

Try educating her. There's bound to be cartoons or films on YouTube about teeth.

Also use the computer as a reward. So 3 minutes brushing gives her 10 minutes telly the next day.

It's likely she

It's likely she will start to take done interest in her appearance aged 12 or 13