DD (10), violent and saying awful things at home.

[felicitywits]

This is getting so distressing.

DD is so angry all the time. She has no friends. When people do play with her she bosses them around and tries to impose herself in their games etc. When she is teased she explodes, sometimes violently. So she has no friends at school.

She resents everything. She will cry and scream about having a shower or being told to brush her teeth. She seems to think she shouldn't have to do homework. Any request made of her is unfair and she will scream and hit herself :(

She is NT, and can be perfectly lovely. She's bright and funny and loves her brothers (5 and 4). But today I caught her telling DS2 that she was going to rip up the toys he was playing with. I told her off and she said that other people say worse things to her (I don't think they do), that she was a loner and would always be a loner and she didn't care and why was I always trying to make her feel bad.

She is worse after she's been with her father, but I'm not sure how much of that is the shock of being around the DSs again.

We will be moving in a few months - is it worth trying to get some kind of counselling assesment or should we wait til we're in the new area?

Today has been so awful, and it was her weekend with her father so the difference in atmosphere when she's here and when she's not is so pronounced :(

I think you should go and talk to your GP and see if he/she can sort some sort of counselling/assessment, yes. Sooner rather than later - she sounds very unhappy and it could just be that she needs help to work on her social skills or anger management.

Have you talked to school about this? Have they done anything to help at playtimes etc? Sometimes all you need is one MSA keeping an eye out on a specific child and making sure they're allowed to join in games etc.

How physically developed is she - is she obviously heading towards puberty? Could that be adding to it all?

She is hitting puberty physically for sure.

She's had a lot of support at school but it's clear (I have seen it myself), that she is perpetuating the problem. She won't ask to join in, she'll barge in and then get violent (not against the other kids specifically, yelling and waving her arms around), and strop off if they don't welcome her. Which of course they don't, since she behaves like that.

We've invited children over and she's spent the whole time bossing them around and telling them what to do.

I'm worried that we'll get a referral too late as we're moving in March - my only experience with NHS counselling has been adult though, is it faster for children?

I think I do need to speak to a GP though. Thankyou.

She sounds very angry and scared.

Is the imminent move contributing to her behaviour? Is she sensing friction between you and her dad? Do you have different parenting styles? Are the boundaries the same?

It sounds like her unhappiness and frustration is spilling over into her school life, etc. She sounds very insecure. Perhaps she blames herself for the way things are between you and her dad.

Counselling would be helpful but while you are waiting for that, perhaps you could focus more on 'joining forces' with her father and devising a way to help your daughter. It won't be easy but if she sees that both her parents are acting as a team, her behaviour and attitude might improve.

Thankyou for your response Jalopy.

She has always been a bit like this at school - never had a particular friend, seemed to think that people should want to play with her but didn't want to play their games iyswim. We worked really hard with her along with her teacher and by year 3 her attitude had changed a lot.

But now she's convinced that nobody likes her, and is aggressively unpleasant to them as a result (which becomes self-fulfilling).

She is desperate to move as she wants a new start but obviously I am worried she'll bring this attitude with her.

Her father and I haven't been together since she was tiny so I don't think it's to do with blaming herself for the split. He and I get on well and worked together in the past in exactly the way you describe but he's been less engaged with how things are at school lately.

And previously she behaved well at home, and now she's not. Her father has mentioned her anger issues but there are no smaller siblings at his place, so he isn't as concerned as I am.

There was an article in the Times last weekend about a condition like this. I can't remember what it's called so I'll hunt it down for you and post about it when I find it.

Yes exactly, that is exactly my concern. She has a lot pinned on this move but she still 'expects' or feels she deserves people to be her friend/want to hang out with her despite her behaviour, and she just doesn't have any experience in having friends she can build on :(

A year ago, she was doing much better in herself - still no friends but not so angry and resentful. I am so worried.

belledechocchip thankyou so much I would REALLY appreciate that.

I'm looking for it now.

Ok, it's called Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome (PDA). "In a child with PDA, simple requests to do everyday things can trigger outbursts. Most typically these include getting up, dressed, and ready for school. Even actions that the child might enjoy, such as playing a game, might trigger a reaction-anything where the child feels that control is being taken away from them. Traditional parenting techniques involving rewards and sanctions, reasoning, praise and routine will actually increase the anxiety of a child with PDA."

I'm not saying your child has this, you need to have a chat with your GP. It could be a completely different problem. I do have the article and I'm happy to put it in the post for you if you want it. It was in Saturdays Times, the Body and Soul section but the newspaper has a paywall so I can't link it. She does sound very unhappy though

Thankyou SO much.

I am going to have an uphill struggle with her dad if I take that line as he has very strong view about things like ODD, ADD etc, he think they are 'made up' and pathologising normal childhood behaviour. I will read about it belledechocchip, thankyou SO SO much.

My poor girl :(

It's OK. It sounds really hard for you. I would approach your GP. Have her teachers flagged up any issues?

We went to the school in year 2 and they were great, though I did have to really twist their arms to get an action plan for her. That carried on through year 3.

Year 4 there were problems in her year with disruptive pupils (not DD), and her teachers were adamant they didn't see an issue with her, though she got a referral for SALT (she has a minor speech impediment), because she said she was being teased for that.

This year things have gotten worse but there's been much less communication between the school and I. I had to find out from DD that she'd been given a detention for shoving another child, for example, and seek out the teacher myself iyswim - the teacher was very dismissive of there being any kind of problem as DD is fine in class and not at all 'bad' in a way teachers or playground supervisors usually notice.

I think the school nurse will be of help to you and DD. They are little gems. You can get in touch with her/him via the school office. You don't need to say what it's about, just tell them you'd like to speak to her and they will arrange for her to give you a call to arrange an appointment. They are more helpful then a GP as they can see DD in school if you want them to and liase with her teachers on your behalf. It can be a relief just to talk to someone understanding. Do see your GP as well, I'm not a professional and I wouldn't want to give you the wrong help. Her behaviour sounds very similar to the child in the article though so I'd have a look on the web for the condition.

Why do you believe your DD is NT? Everything you have described about her indicates that she may have issues related to ASD.

We were told DS was NT for 4 years, until he changed schools in Year 9, aged 13. Up until then we had experienced most of the issues you have described in your post at 01.07 with your DD.

His SENCO refered him for assessment within 2 weeks of starting at his new school, and he was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome 4 months later.

DS is now in Year 11 - he rarely has meltdowns at school now. He doesn't have friends either, but he's accepted that won't happen until 6th form probably. At least the other kids don't stuff his head down the bog anymore. He's doing great academically though. And they have GIRLZ in the 6th form!

There isn't a school nurse :( I think the schools in the borough share one or something. I could ask to see him/her but he/she won't know DD personally or anything.

I will see someone though, this does need sorting - I don't want these issues carried over to our new area (or, if there are serious issues, I want to know about them before we move iyswim).

Lapsed back in year 2 we asked about her being assessed, and were told that there were no concerns. I have spoken to her teachers and SENCOs every year since and they have always said they don't think there's any kind of issue there. They think her issues are circumstantial/situational.

Oh dear, Felicity, we were told from Year 4 to Year 8 that Ds's difficulties were "situational" and "circumstancial". Ds visits his Dad (we split when he was 2) every weekend. He is an only child. He has lived with DH (stepdad) and I since he was 4. He has always had a secure and stable life iwht both parents who love him.

His primary school totally ignored his issues, in spite of repeated efforts to deal with bullying. And when he went to Secondary school, even when our GP referred him to Kidscape because of the bullying he was experiencing, the school insisted it was beause he "wasn't a team-player".

Hmm, Lapsed, that is concerning, so many parallels.

This move will, I think, be good for us in that case too. We're moving to a region which has much more in place in terms of identifying and actioning SEN. I will be chasing this up very aggressively with the new school.

Every child has access to a school nurse, even children at a private school. She will build up a relationship with you and your daughter and will support you both. PDA is one of the ASDs.

Sounds like the GP might be a better route for you then, although it is worth asking about the school nurse as they have a role around emotional health of pupils. Although the school won't have a nurse of their own they will have one assigned to them (and a number of other schools too, they will work with several). It sounds like your dd might need some support from Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. I'm sorry that her school isn't seeing the bigger picture, it sounds very distressing for both her and you.

Felicitywits, can I suggest you re-post this message (or just ask for further advice) in the Special Needs topic? The "Preteens" thead is a bit dead"

I think you will get far better and more experienced help there!

My Ds has Aspergers Syndrome, but I'm really not well qualified to offer the best advice and help in your situation!

It's amazing the variation in how schools manage the more 'interesting' children. We were very lucky because we sent our children to a school with a unit for children with behavioural problems and so they knew all about the support services they could access. My ds was considered as potentially having something on the autistic spectrum when he was younger (6-7ish) and the intervention that I think was really the most helpful was when the social communications specialist came in and gave the teacher lots of strategies for getting all the children to play better together (things like a book of games to pick from at break). They weren't much help when he finally was diagnosed as dyslexic, but he did get a lot of support on how to make (and keep) friends.

See, that's just it - DD's school is by far the best in the area for SEN support and has a dedicated sensory room (I hope that's the term), many many pupils statemented (and many with ASD). So I assumed they knew what they were talking about!