Horrible day at play group, I'm so upset:(

[Trebuchet]

I am chair of a playgroup and to cut a v v long story short the manager is a nightmare. Since I took over it has become increasingly obvious that she is bigoted, racist and a snob, people from council estates(myself included) referred to as scum, apparently childcare qualifications are only done by black single mothers from city centres. I honestly think she has mental health issues. My duty of care however is to the kids.

After calling the training people "over paid box tickers-I don't know how you sleep at night, you care nothing for the children." we had to demote her as she was terminated from the course and therefore not working towards her qualification.

She's worked there for 31 years with same 2 ladies, also unqualified. Every committee have tried to get her to leave but have been too worried at the fall out to actually do it themselves, which I understand. Because of how much she's put into it we wanted her to leave with some dignity, so instead of sacking her we told her that her post was redundant etc.

She went off it as we expected but the really sad thing is that the other two ladies have said that they cannot stay without her. They are lovely and great with the kids.

We spoke to them all yesterday but today they announed this. I feel terrible. I did not expect this to happen, stupid I know.

Its going to be all change for the kids as they've all refused to work any notice or anything, so the kids will be coming back from half term with all new staff.

I feel awful that I've unwittingly upset these ladies lives and that the kids will miss them. The ladies were crying but said it would be too sad to work notice so today is their last day.

Sounds like a nightmare situation.
Have you got new staff lines up ?

The children will cope.

What surprises me is the decision of the other 2 ladies, they obviously dont need their jobs and the money, and so thats fine if they choose to leave.

But, what disturbs me though is not working to their contract and working a notice period, and the fact that they do not seem at all bothered by them both leaving at the same time and the effect this will have on everybody they have chosen to leave behind.

I don't know anythin about playgroups so forgive me, but in employment law you can't just get rid of someone by making them redundant. Does she have an actul contract of employment? Because if she does I think you would need to prove that there is no longer a need for her post, which you can't if you're planning on replacing her.

So I can kind of see where the other ladies are coming from...

Do you think the other 2 genuinely wanted to leave, or were they guilted into it by the (now ex) manager?

If you have made her "redundant", please make sure that the new role you create is substantially different, and requires different qualifications, otherwise you could find yourselves in trouble. From what you have written here it may have been unwise not to take this down a disciplinary route. Try to get some hr/employment law advice if you haven't already.

The other two ladies have resigned. I would contact them personally and individually and give them one more opportunity to take the option to return. If you make it clear that you value them individually as staff they may change their minds.

I don't agree with this ladies behaviour at all but it does sound as though she has been treated very unfairly, and probably illegaly.

As mazzy says, she should have been disciplined so that she could modify her own behaviour, or you should have looked into whether her behaviour was a sackable offence.

I'm sorry but I think you're on very dodgy legal ground here.

are you members of the pre-school learning alliance? if so I think you need to be speaking to their legal people asap as from what you've said you've not followed the correct procedures in sacking a staff member.

hope you can get the situation sorted out

What bumpybecky said. Get on to the PLA'S Lawcall people asap. I'd also speak to Sure Start if I was you - normally they have someone in a Childcare Development Worker role who can advise you.

I totally see why you need to get rid of this woman, but you have to protect yourselves in the process and not lay yourself open to a tribunal.

I had to make Pre-School staff redundant when the local school opened a nursery class and took all the children. The PLA were great at supporting us. It wasn't pleasant but we got through it and the staff were resigned in the end. At another pre-school I also had issues with staff falling out and had to have a round table meeting with them all to clear the air. It is a HUGE responsbility being the chairperson and I think it is unrealistic of the PLA to expect people to take it on a volunteer basis especially when they may have a job already. I think that the whole system is ripe for an overhaul and wrote to the PLA to say so when I finished as chair. You need to treat this as a job - be professional. Make sure you are following all the guidance and lean heavily on others on the Committee for support. This is not your fault. The woman concerned was not playing ball and should have realised the consequences of her actions. The other two were being sheep and couldn't have been that committed anyway. Draw a line under it. Build a new team with your new staff. The kids will be fine - you can provide some continuity by perhaps asking parents to volunteer for a while. Work closely with the new staff to make sure everyone knows where they stand. Agree with each of them their development plan and goals for the year vis a vis training etc and make sure you talk to them on a regular basis. The rest is history - look forward.

I am assuming that the lady does have to made redundant though as she was thrown off the course and regulations now mean that pre school managers have to by law have certain level of qualifications these days.

It would not hurt thought to get proper legal advice on it.

In the long term this will be the best decision for the children.

What Vuture said... stop seeing this as a voluntary role and treat it as a job, taking all the precautions and following all procedures like you would have to in paid employment.

There's a fairly long system of steps that have to be taken from the initial problem with a member of staff and their eventual dismissal (if necessary) and i have to agree with those who've said it sounds as though you might have jumped the gun a bit.

If he racist attitude was an issue she should have been issues a written warning about it and asked to modify her behaviour and attend meetings or classes of some kind to discuss her attitudes and why they cannot be tolerated in a playschool environment. If she then failed to do these things a second written warning should have been issued restating these points. Only after these warnings had been issued should she have been terminated and even then there are procedures that simply have to be followed.

You could also have done the above but focused on her refusal to attain qualification.

I'm shocked that the playschool was running with 3 unqualified staff though, surely that's illegal? It is over here, not only are all our staff qualified but they regualrily attend refresher courses in first aid, childcare and H&S as part of their job requirments.

The kids will adjust, most will barely notice and those that do will get over it... it's you and the rest of the committee you should worry about as this could get unpleasant.

sorry for grammar... or rather lack there of. DP is drumming and the boys are fighting over toys and i'm trying to process quarterly returns for our playschool (treasurer)

I assume that whilst the lady was working towards her qualification it was legal. Once she was thrown off the course she had to be replaced.

Sounds to me like you need to get some legal advice from LawCall ASAP!

I wouldn't worry too much about the children - they'll adapt and your new staff with their actual qualifications will do wonders for them. I can't believe your staff have been running unqualified for this long though.

Being committee chair is a massive responsibility but I would add is enormously rewarding too.

Thanks for responses. I was just giving the ba e bones of the situation with manager didn't want to bore you all...! We didn't just dceide one day and act straight away, I am fairly sure we have acted appropriately. We did sk guidnce from HR, PLA, Early Years tm and ACAS who have guided us thrgh each step and have been amazngly helpful. She has had verbal and written warning pls many dscusions about behaivir, this stage of disciplinary comes at a time when we have so few kids and its a choice betwee redundancis and closing.

We also have a qualified member of staff who was supporting manager through training, so we were legal while working towards it.

Feel like ave takn on so much, just moved to south west fancied joining in and makig friends...

Hate to be negative when you've had a bad day but just thought I'd share my experience...

I ended up at an Employment Tribunal situation in a similar scenario a few years ago. This was despite taking advice from PLA, ACAS and spending more hours on the phone to Lawcall than I care to remember. The person who refused to get qualifications/change in any way at all to reflect modern ideas and legislation claimed she was being bullied and submitted a claim to tribunal. She put a grievance in a couple of months after leaving and went from there.

On the actual day, she didn't go through with it but by that time the financial and emotional damamge was done and reputations damaged too. I couldn't believe that someone who I had tried to hard to help and compromise with could do this.

Please make sure you keep detailed records of all meetings/conversations in case this happens to you.

In terms of your new staff, it sounds like it will be a good thing in the long term and I think the children will manage just fine if it is introduced to them as a positive.

Good luck!

Am I the only person to have some sympathy for people who have worked 31 years in a job and are then told they need to undergo training and gain a qualification to do the job that they have been doing possibly since before their new boss was born?
I'm not saying that this woman is without fault, I have no way of knowing, and you cetainly feel she was lacking, but it is a very difficult situation to manage, and sounds very unfortunate for all that it has ended in this way.

Hanley thank for shring y ur experince, its difficult as we've taken so much advice and tried to do it properly but you can only do your best.

Otters, please believe me it has been the thought of hurting her and having real sympathy for her position that has kept her there for so long despite not having done an adequate job for a long time. When I say adequate I don't refer to her lack of training but for example, her refusal to take kids to the loo as it was "beneath me considering my standing in this community", her hostility to any working mothers, which she defended saying they were "putting money first, they should just sell one of their cars", her refusal to speak to anyone from the early years team as she felt she should be teaching them, and her refusal to even discuss OFSTED. She just told me to stop letting Satan in. The previous committee knew all these opinions she held but felt she was in a difficult position having worked there for so long.

Our issues with her were discussed and dealt with in disciplinary meetings. Her course termination led to a necessary demotion. She wanted to stay on as an unqualified worker. Because she has been such hard work many parents have taken their children out. We were left with too many unqualified workers, sometimes one to one ratio with the children. We needed to make 2 redundancies and asked ourselves who had the qualities to best take the playgroup forward. That was the basis on which we made our choice. There is not the work for that many staff. Making her position redundant has nothing to do with the issues we've had with her, they have been being dealt with on our part. This is a seperate thing. Hope I have made it a bit clearer. I just wanted to vent a bit.

Sorry meant to say thanks to everyone for your esponses and advice.

What town is the group in?

I think you should try to guilt a member of staff back for a week for the sake of the children. All new staff will not be easy.

She sounds like sucha charmer Trebuchet. I cna't imagine why you'd let her go

very glad to hear you did it all legally though. Hope your new staff are better