changing from committee based to something else....

[bumpybecky]

I posted a few months ago about the problems dd3's preschool was having with the whole committee thing. Basic problem is one I know a lot of you have found, the committee in charge thing isn't IME practical. For at least three years now things haven't been run properly as people are inexperienced / incapable! / too busy / want someone else to do it etc. The staff have been left muddling on, hoping each time that next year the committee will be better.

At the moment I'm managing to keep on top of this year's accounts, payroll etc, but that's it. The last two financial years have yet to be sorted and sent to the charities commission, we are about to lose charitable status. I cannot do much more than I am doing at the moment and am aware that the little I'm doing is in now way enough.

I have suggested to the staff that we look into the possibility of 'sacking' the committee and setting up again as a not for profit company with the staff in charge.

Does anyone know a group that has done this? did it work out OK? I think our constitution says we'd need to give any cash and resources to the local PSLA, whereas what would be ideal would be to transfer them to a new group based at the same location. I am not suggesting this to let anyone (satff or committee) benefit financially, just to give the staff the chance to run things themselves rather than relying on parents who up until now have been mostly useless.

Is this a really stupid idea?

am vice chariperson of our commitee and totally agree with the utter uselessness of it.

not living in england so can't help re the law but good luck with changing things

First of all, if you are signed up to the PLA's constitution I'm fairly certain the committee can't be sacked by the staff, the committee are trustees of the pre-school and therefore liable for any debts incurred. If you check your consitution you will see there are lots of rules about officers not being allowed to step down unless they have a replacement etc. Did you sign up to the 2005 or the 2008 consitution at your last AGM? These do vary.

If you look at the 2008 version here www.pre-school.org.uk/documents/153 section 11.4a states the ways in which a pre-school can be closed down and money distributed.

If you are about to lose your charitable status then you will not be able to fund-raise, surely this will make it very difficult to keep running?

If I were you I would get some proper help in pronto, ie. speak to your area council and see if they have somebody who over-sees the local pre-schools. If not speak to the PLA, they should be able to point you in the right direction, there are lots of people out there and you need some serious help.

we've not signed up the the 2008 version of the constitution as we know it exisited until after the agm

I know in theory the committee are trustees and can't resign until someone has agreed to takeover, however in my experience this is just not what happens!

I was on the committee from when dd3 started at the preschool in September 2007. I know all but one of the previous committee (2006-2007) just dissappeared when their children left. They didn't finish the accounts for that year, didn't present reports to the AGM the next year, didn't send paperwork to the Charities Commission etc etc. They just left, but not until they'd given the staff a huge payrise, increased their working hours and employed extra staff. The committee thought they were being good to the staffby doing this. We ended up making an operational loss of over £6500 the following year

At the end of 2007-2008 again there was one member of the committee left (me!), again no one finished the accounts, nothing got sent to the Charities Commission, no report presented to the AGM etc. Parents just stopped their involvement as their children had left.

So we come to 2008-2009, serious leaning on parents gets us a committee, none of us really has the knowledge, skills, time etc to be doing this. I've done more than the others, but I cannot do much more and it's such a mess. The stress of this (plus other personal issues) is making me ill. If there were anyone who would take over from me, I'd resign today.

I've asked the PSLA for help. They sent details of local fundraising courses. I went on a course, but without the accounts we can't apply for anything. I've been nagging the pervious treasurer since I took over, but no accounts have been passed over to me.

I've tried to get help from the council, but frankly they are useless! They won't reply to emails, are not there when I phone. The local support officer has visited, but to speak to the staff, not to the committee who were not told about the visit in advance! The council is restructuring at the moment and no one seems to know exactly who is supposed to be doing what.

It's all such a mess. I feel do badly for the staff though. It just doesn't seem fair that they are at the mercy of a bunch of parents that changes every year! there is no continuity, so many things are not being done correctly and no one is really willing and able to sort it out.

I had hoped that if the committee could be dissolved and a new company / cooperative started the preschool could carry on running, but without relying on parents to run it. At least that way the staff would have some sort of control over what was going on!

Sorry, long rant. I'll go and lie down now!

oh and all of the children of this year's committee will be leaving in July, so I can see history repeating itself again!

I think leaving the running of preschools to committees of parents is one of the silliest management ideas ever invented! There has to be a better way....

I see what you are saying with regards to there being no help available, but I would phone them both again and spell it out, "We need your help or we are going to have to close". Failing this then write and send it recorded, surely they will have to deal with this?

We are in the early stages of looking for a different non-commtitee format but I really don't know much about it, it is something to do with incorporation, either through the charity commission or the PLA. Why don't you phone up the PLA and ask them about it? Don't give up until you have got somewhere.

I'm sorry to sound heavy, but I really do think you are on dangerous ground as there are several things you have done wrong, (not you personally, the previous committee members etc), such as not having enough committee members to form a quorum, not filing accounts with charity commission etc. I think this needs to be sorted one way or the other pretty quickly, I also would have thought the PLA would get involved pretty sharpish if they knew the seriousness of what was going on.

I do hope you get somewhere - let us know how you get on!!

X-Posts. My dd left pre-school in January and I have just signed up to be secretary for another year, our chairman also does not have a child at pre-school at the moment - we are both doing it for the benefit of the pre-school!!! I am currently not working and actually enjoy having something to do and being useful, so it doesn't have to be that everyone leaves.

Maybe they all need a copy of the consitution for them to read to remind themselves what they have committed themselves to?

Any-way, our administrator has just resigned after some serious problems, so we now have that to sort out! Interesting stuff

I'm treasurer. I have four children, my youngest is just 14 months and has only realised what sleeping means in the last 2 months. I also work part time and have before turned down paid work as I've been too busy on preschool work. I am so stressed at the moment I am making myself ill.

The other four committee members between them have a further 13 children(!) and are all busy people. Two work part time, one in the middle of a nasty divorce, the other is about to emigrate! We all signed up as it were because if we didn't do so preschool would close. All of us knew our children would be leaving in July so our time would be limited.

I think if I suggested any of us stayed on next year I'd be lynched!

Hi BB, what area of the country are you in? How bad are the state of your accounts? Do you have all the paperwork - if so, a bookkeeper should be able to draw up end of year accounts at a minimal cost?
I can give you a quote if you're in my area .
If you can sort your accounts out and file them, there are pots of money you can apply to for susstainability reasons which might give you a little breathing space.

we're now in Central Bedfordshire is that near you? to put it simply, for 2006/2007 I have nothing! not a single piece of paper, all is with the previous treasurer. We've decided to leave it another two weeks as she has promised to get them completed. Finger's crossed...

For 2007/2008 I think I've got it all, but I have been advised we can't get the end of year accounts done as there is nothing certified to start from (as the previous year hasn't been done).

I've been doing the accounts for 2008/2009 and as far as I know everything is OK so far

As for the grants we've been told by the Preschool support worker (at the old council before the unified or deunified or whatever it was they did!) that we are not eligable for sustainability grants

'Unfortunately we do not provide funding for education sessions, we provide it for care which is things like lunch club, breakfast club, holiday care and after school care'

I can really sympathise with you. I'm chair (not by choice!) of our committee which was newly formed this time last year. None of us had any experience and we've muddled through the last 12 months. Had I known the amount of work involved there is no way I'd have stepped into this position. From employing staff to apraisals to pay rises to relocation/new build on the cards - nothing I've any experience in which is taking up every bit of spare time I have. I too work 19 hours a week as well as being full time mum to 2. I can't honestly remember what I used to worry about before taking on this role!

We have just had a business health check done by Children's Services - free and really useful. We were told that we're doing fine - making enough money to breakeven with reserves in the bank. We've been lucky enough to have a professional accountant join our committee at our last AGM in Feb.

Also - I've just applied for a grant to continue runing our lunch club (which we have been trialling since Jan) and we've been succesful - bid will cover staff wages and rent for 38 weeks. Really wasn't expecting to get anything - and has made we want to apply for more grants!

Can't rate our Development Worker from Children's Services more highly - she's been great.

I do wonder what will happen when this Committee eventually steps down - can't see there being anyone to replace us!

You should be able to draw up provisional accounts for 2007/08 but yes, you won't have a starting point. That said, you can form a income and expenditure list then deal with the opening balances when the previous treasurer pulls her finger out.

I'm sorry I'm not closer, I'm in Yorkshire, otherwise I could help do that for you. If you don't get any joy from the old treasurer in 2 weeks I would ask for everything she's got and do it yourself and do what I've suggested re income and expenditure.

And you completely have my sympathies. I took over last May to find no paperwork other than cheque book stubs and bank statements. What I did find though was the previous treasurer had been helping herself to the cash , several thousands with would explain why there was no money. Committees are not the way to run a business.

at your ex-treasurer!

have the Police been invloved? can you say? how terrible though to be stealing from a preschool

Oh yes, she was in court a few weeks ago. Didn't get off lightly either.

But it just shows the weakness of this model of voluntary committees. Luckily for us (but maybe not for me) my youngest has only just started preschool so I'll be around for a couple more years.

The charity commission is trying to get some accounts from us for 06/2008 until 09/2008 as for some reason the last Treasurer did not bother doing them.
Also the previous Chairman had one parent named on documents as the Treasurer but it was actually the old Treasurer who was still doing the accounts and getting paid!
And the saga of my pre-school continues, the latest is that the pre-school leader has now resigned and has to give 4 weeks notice and of course it means she only has to work another 10days due to the Easter holidays.
She actually told me she does not have another job to go to and is just on an agency list. She is waiting to see if she has passed her "Professional Status" exams and then she will be like gold dust.
Yeah, but i feel very let down and used to be frank
But on a brighter note, both our Chairman and Treasurer are very committed and have two young children who will be there for at least another 2yrs and we possibly have a new leader starting who is MUCH more experienced and the children already like her.
I'm sorry you are all having so much trouble, the new parents coming must basically be told that they HAVE to be on the committee.
Problem is, too many people think pre-school is like a normal school where the government pays for it and you don't have to do anything

BumpyBecky you need to remind all the parents of your preschool how your preschool is run and make sure they all start helping. Make it clear if they don't preschool will close. You can't continue as you have been. In fact I suspect according to your constitution you probably shouldn't closed down before now.

Read your constitution. Call an Extrodinary General Meeting - if no-one turns up, call another one,if still no-one turns up. Close.

If no-one steps forward to help you, it may be possible for the staff to set up as an incorporated company, but they wouldn't be able to be paid for the committee work they did only the work with the children.