Nursery issues

[Symposium]

I’m looking for advice about my 3 year old nephew. He started school nursery in September but after day 1 was put on reduced hours. Initially we thought fine as he needed settling time, but it has not improved. They have concerns about his speech and language and he was assessed by a therapist who concluded he was all good and age appropriate. The school are not happy and have insisted he is assessed within the school setting but that won’t happen until the new year. He is only going in for 1.5 hours when it should be 3 hours. Sometimes they increase by 15 mins but whenever there is an issue, like one day he was upset and ripped a book, they send him home and cut his time by 15 mins again. They say he needs 121 and they can’t manage him! He is a lovely boy. He never hurts anyone . It’s possible he is autistic as it runs in our family and he does have some signs but surely the school should be able to manage him and not keep excluding him? I’m trying to help my sister in law as she is not from the UK and is struggling to understand the system and how to navigate everything. My brother is resistant to any mention of autism right now and seems to just go along with whatever the school say. I’ve suggested to my sister in law that she ask for a meeting with the school. I’ve offered to attend with her if they want and she’s going to talk with my brother about it. I’m not sure what other advice I can give them and I feel really sad and frustrated for them. Has anyone got any experience of this or can offer further advice?

How close are you? How much do you know?
Are the nursery putting plans in place, working together etc.
Nurserys don’t put children on reduced hours unless the children need it as it needs justification on paperwork to be in the child’s best interest.

I know he has a learning plan but the only 2 issues on it are that he needs help with his gross motor skills as he trips over a lot. And he needs to use some sign language to aid communication. I’ve been keeping out of it up until now as it’s not my kid but my sister in law really wants help now.

They need to arrange a meeting with the preschool and find out how he is doing. Preschool is a totally different environment to home so it's totally possible he is displaying behaviour there that he doesn't at home. The sensory overload for example is very different. He might not be coping and they feel 3hrs is too much. I'm speculating but they probably have his best interests at heart. It's all very well saying they should manage him but they can't pluck staff out of thin air. Preschool is not statutory so there is no legal obligation. It might be that they can apply for extra funding to support him but that won't kick in until the following term, so after Christmas.

In surprised that you say there’s no legal obligation as I did not think that was the case. The research I’ve done so far suggests it is not ok for them to do this and is illegal to exclude him and not provide for his needs even though it is nursery rather than school. His parents want him in school. He actually likes going and walks there very excited and goes in happily. I don’t doubt that he displays different behaviour there than at home. But nothing they have said sounds so bad as to justify excluding him.

How old is he?

Sorry, he's 3 isn't he.

Yes he’s 3 , Summer birthday so one of the youngest. He’s also never really gone to playgroups or anything.

It's not an illegal exclusion at 3 because he's not school age. If he's entitled to 15hrs funding then the nursery should try to offer 15 hrs if they can but they are not legally bound to provided they are only claiming for the hours he actually attends.

Even though the nursery is run by the school it's a separate setting. He will have to apply again to get a place for reception.

That’s interesting. How would we know what hours they are claiming for? Is that something they can ask about?

Personally I’d go and discuss what behaviours they think are a concern. He might need extra support - but a different nursery might be able to handle it better. Ripping a book doesn’t sound like a reason a nursery would reduce hours.

My sister in law was asking me about switching schools. But I thought a meeting with this one first, to try and work out what’s happening, would be the best place to start.

Yes, they can ask what hours they are claiming

Under the Equality Act (2010), it could be illegal for a school or nursery to refuse a child a place on the grounds of disability.

You have to be careful though, schools often can get some, all be it meagre, funding for supporting children with disabilities in their setting. This exists because local authorities have a duty to provide a place at an educational establishment for all children from the September after they turn 4, unless their parents choose to home educate. From an educational law perspective, there is no legal duty for any setting to provide any hours to a child until the September after they turn 4, so schools generally won't be able to access funding for extra support for children of nursery age.

I would start by having a face to face meeting with the school where the child's parents and the nursery have a good discussion of all the issues and what could be done to manage them or why they can't be managed.

Yes I think that’s a good idea. Ask them for the support plan if they have one and any incident reports. If they think he needs one to one then they should be applying for funding for that or putting in an application for an EHCP. If it really is just incidents like ripping books and a speech delay then that just sounds like very common issues that nurseries should be used to dealing with.

Thanks all. It sounds like I’m right in thinking having meeting about it with the school is the best step forward. I’ll see what they manage to arrange. I’ve advised them to put it in a email so there’s a record.

DS tripped over a lot at that age, he was later diagnosed with dsypraxia. If you have ND in the family then it's possible he may be autistic and dyspraxic as DS is.

Definitely have a meeting with the teacher. It's hard to know exactly what is going on until you speak to the school properly. School nurseries can be a bit more structured though, he might be more suited to a different provision.

I don't know if it is just your style of writing, but the felling I am getting from your posts just comes across as confrontational (or that his parents are being so). It seems the concerns are more about 'demanding his / their rights' rather than being open minded as to what the Nursery staff are saying about his needs.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by a Nursery saying they have concerns about a child's development if they didn't have. Why do the parents (and by default, you, as you are the one on here) think that the Nursery would make up things about his stage of development ?
If he only started Nursery in September, and presumably it was after that concerns about language development were raised, how has he been assessed by a SaLT already ? Where in the country are you that waiting lists are that short ?

My suggestion would be for the parents to ask to have a meeting with the SENCo and his key worker, and to go in with completely open minds, to hear about any concerns that the Nursery have, and then listen to what the Nursery suggest might be a good next step. But not to go in being defensive and hostile to the idea that they might be some developmental needs there.

I’m sorry if it’s come across that way. I’m not a confrontational person at all and neither are his parents. They have just quietly accepted everything so far but are now worried that he is not making progress and are feeling like the school are treating him as “naughty “ and excluding him for things like ripping a book. It isn’t clear what the plan for him is. They thought he would be doing his 3 hours a day by now but every time they increase his hours a little, it’s back down again within a day. It just doesn’t seem right. He’s missing out on so much . He didn’t get his school photo taken as they did it when he wasn’t there . He isn’t in a single picture they share on tapestry. He doesn’t get to join in forest school or any of the fun activities like cooking. I’m struggling to understand how that is justified. It just doesn’t seem fair. I just want to offer them help and advice as they are struggling.

Is this a state or private school? If they accept eyfs funding they do have to be inclusive but that is not the same as allowing attendance ft. Your sil should know what she signed for re. Funding. If he needs signing that suggest his speech and language is a problem and she could ask the sendco to help apply for an ehcp or do so herself.

I should imagine they have had to reduce his hours as they cannot manage his needs for longer in order to keep him and others safe. It must not be in his best interests at the moment. Ime children who have been asked to reduce their hours have ideally needed a 1-2-1 but unfortunately this is not funded. Nurseries are already running on lack of funding.

It is definitely a good idea to ask for a meeting with the Manager and keyworker. To be honest this should have already happened when they reduced his hours. Ask what his behaviour is like at nursery, what he needs support with and what they are planning to do. They should already have an IEP in place, ask what his next steps are and what the parents can do to help at home. You mention speech delay, this can have a massive impact on him in a nursery setting, frustration can be displayed in lots of ways such as hitting out, meltdowns, throwing things etc. I doubt this will show at home as much as parents tend to know what their child wants without them needing to ask, they rarely need to wait for needs to be met, they don't need to share etc. His parents may not be aware of his behaviour at nursery.

It's lovely you are wanting to help them.

It’s a typical state nursery within a primary school. He’s signed up for 15 hours and is supposed to attend Monday to Friday for 3 hours a day. He doesn’t actually even know signing. I don’t know if the school are planning to teach it?? He speaks at home. He just isn’t speaking in school. When he met with speech and language outside school he also spoke ok and they were given a report saying he was ok and age appropriate. My sister in law told school this but she felt that their reaction was quite rude. It was like they didn’t believe her. They asked to see the report then said he needed to be assessed again within the school setting. Although I can kind of understand them wanting this if his behaviour is different in school. I just think she’s starting to feel like their attitude towards her and her son is becoming hostile and she feels like he is being punished . Of course I only know all this from what she is telling me but I do know that she is a calm , sweet and respectful person who is always polite , especially to authority figures like teachers. So I’m pretty sure she won’t have got their backs up by being difficult at all. She has not disagreed with anything they have said so far and she has done all that they ask of her. I’m not sure how he was seen so quickly for the assessment, I won’t say exact where they are but it’s southern England.

Preschool nursery is not compulsory to attend and LAs don't have an obligation to have him at this age for any number of hours. They can offer funded hours and they will be claiming them in full - why wouldn't they, he took that space and they need to pay for staff.

I'm surprised that your SIL hasn't considered talking to the school for 3 months if they raised a number of concerns. IMO you don't know the full story and the school likely has sufficient concerns to justify what they've done. Your SIL needs to ask for a meeting and if she's struggling, go in with her to support her. Clearly her son would benefit from additional support asap, perhaps your SIL should get on with arranging it based on discussions with the school.

You need to educate yourself about the system before you go in. Your posts did come across confrontational and entitled, but you clearly didn't know enough.

I’m a nursery and reception teacher and have had professional reports that I absolutely do not agree with before. We had a paediatrician tell a parent their child was ‘fine’ when there is absolutely no doubt, this child had ADHD and Dyspraxia - we know this child far better than the doctor who saw him for 15 minutes but we’re not listened to. There will be a reason he is on a reduced timetable.

His speech delay could be partially due to dual language . Although I’m pretty sure his mum is mainly speaking English with him. I’m concerned as some of the things she has told me about the schools approach just don’t seem appropriate. They will call her and say she needs to come and collect him early as he “isn’t happy” Or “he ripped a book” or “he was throwing water around” . All these are were separate days not all at once. None of those seem like serious enough to be sent home. Unless there’s more to it that isn’t being said. It’s just starting to feel like they use any reason at all to send him home even when he’s only on reduced hours as it is .