What should I expect from DC's nursery in terms of learning to read/phonics

[WizzyBizzy]

DS has been at a nursery which takes babies through to pre-schoolers. I need to decide whether to leave him there for the nursery year or to move him to the nursery class of the primary school he's likely to move on to. The nursery is very much a free play kind of place, and I've been very happy with it. They apparently do do some phonics, although they've been very vague about how they approach this. Have just hired a teacher though, put have been terrible at communicating with the parents about what she's actually going to be doing. I've been asking lots of questions but not getting answers I'm satisfied with - they just say they follow the exact same curriculum as the local schools.

I went in to visit the local primary school to have a look around this week and was really impressed by the nursery class. They start phonics at the beginning of nursery and have a reading scheme that the kids get into straight away. I'm not a pushy parent and I'm actually quite relaxed about this sort of thing at such a young age. However, I don't want DS to be behind when he starts in reception. Also, he LOVES books and I suspect that if he doesn't start doing phonics properly, early, he will pick up a lot of words by sight (he's already starting to do this) and my understanding is that this can cause problems with learning phonics properly later on (I don't really understand this myself though!).

Soooo, what should I really be expecting? Is there a good site for parents that explains this? (I find OFSTED, for example, completely useless for telling parents what you actually need to know in this regard!).

If he is going to the school I would swap to their nursery if you were impressed.
He will then be with the DCs he will be at school with.

The nursery my DC go to were told to stop teaching phonics by the Council, as they weren't using the same system as the various schools. But they did some sneakly and all the DC could write and sound out there names. Instead they but lots of attention on numbers which proved more useful for my DC in the end.

DD also went to the school nursery and didn't do any phonics there either. They did do lots of pre reading skills, so in reception she picked up reading quickly.

They don't want to be doing phonics early -we start far too young in this country. However, if you like the nursery of the school he is going to, and they have a place, it makes sense to send him there.

Thanks all.

exoticfruits - I tend to agree, but if a child is picking up words by sight anyway, isn't it better to catch them at this point and fit in the phonic approach?

There needs to be quite a compelling reason to move him though as the nursery is much more flexible in terms of hours and open all year round, so we have 1 more year of not having to work out before/after school care / holiday care (as DH and I both work) plus we have another DC at the nursery. We'll have to deal with this conundrum eventually, but bringing it to ourselves a year early is a hassle. I'm prepared to do it if its worth it for other reasons, but I'm still not really clear what the value is. Obviously meeting new school friends a year early is nice, but since he wouldn't be the only new person in the class if he started in reception I'm not sure this is such a big deal. Is there any guidance anywhere on what you should be looking for a nursery / pre-school to actually do, so you can use that as a guide?

All nurseries should be following the EYFS curriculum which is essentially learning through play.

Lots of children don't do school nursery and it doesn't make a huge difference socially or academically in the long term. Also in a lot of schools having a nursery place doesn't guarentee you a reception place.

I think a lot depends on your child. Most school nurseries are pretty intolerant of toilet accidents. (Legally that have accept children who aren't perfectly toilet trained, but they make the parents feel like shit.) Most schools make the parent come in and change child if they have a toilet accident. In my experience day nurseries tend to baby pre school children more than school nurseries. Ie. my daughter's private nursery will wipe her bum and give her a cuddle. The staff ratio is a lot smaller. If your child has a toilet accident at day nursery they will clean up your child without complaint.

However a school nursery has a qualfied teacher and if your child is advanced then they will learn phonics, writing and maths through play. At our school the brighter nursery children spend time in the reception class and the more immature reception children can spend time in the school nursery.

I think it depends on the nursery and the child.
DS1 (now 9) knew all his phonics (not just letters, but th, sh etc) before he was 3, worked out how to blend them himself and was reading before he started school. He had no formal phonics input from his school nursery as far as I am aware - they taught them to write their name, and to write numbers to 10. He has always had a reading age about 4years ahead.

DS2 (now in reception) was noted by (a different) school nursery that he was ready to learn phonics about this time last year. So they started giving him simple phonics books to learn a few simple letter phonics (there was no formal phonics learning in the school until reception). He is now top of the year 1 group in school and is taught with them rather than the reception group.

DS3 (currently in a non-school nursery, but due to start nursery at the school in September) has been taught simple letter phonics, mainly in terms of letters that the children's names start with e.g. C for Connie, B for Bertie, so he recognises most letters. They have an early years teacher who again is teaching them at their own level, so one child who can read already there is being helped with reading properly.

I think with the EYFS (and we are in Wales so may be different in England) that they are meant to push all children on individually when they are ready, rather than every child being treated equally. DS2 for example would not of been capable of formal phonics before the nursery started with him, he wasn't interested at all (numbers on the other hand were his thing) and it would probably have put him off. Waiting until he was ready he has stormed ahead.

That's really helpful, thanks.

Taking account of your last post, I would stay put.

Thanks all. There's some great stuff on here. I think the thing that confuses me most is that everyone talks about 'learning through play' but I don't really have a clue what that means and different 'providers' (terrible term) seem to do this in very different ways - i.e. some much more structured and some less so and I've not been able to find any guidance on what's 'best' (for my kind of DC). Learning through play could mean just leaving kids totally on their own to get on with it for most of the time (which seems to be the nursery's approach, although in reality I'm sure it is better than that sounds), or it could means very structured activities but done in a fun and playful way. I just don't feel confident that I'm equipped with the information I need to be able to make a decision about what is best for my DC on anything other than a 'convenience' basis (which would means sticking with nursery), which feels rather selfish somehow.

IME learning through play works best where there is a good teacher:pupil ratio. I know in the DSs school/nursery they have decided that they need structure within the EYFS so the children are not allowed to just do what they like all the time, they are split into groups and each group has to do each activity at least once in the week. This has changed since DS1 was going through EYFS when he was allowed to spend all his free time (Afternoons) in Yr2 doing junk modelling! (Having said that he is now exceptionally good at 3d design).
The way I think it is expected to work (and I'm not an EYFS teacher so could be wrong, just observed lessons in school at ks1 level) is say there are a group of children standing at the water table. One of the children starts pouring water with a jug. For some children this is the first time they have been near playing with water so they learn how to pour water from the jug into the water table. Some children can already do that, they increase their motor skills by being encouraged to pour the water into smaller containers. Other children are already au fait in that, so they notice there are numbers on the edge of the jugs - can they pour out a certain amount. The children learn by watching their more advanced peers, and also by guidance from the teacher. Equally one day they may change the activity slightly, there might be food colouring added to the water, so children can see how it starts off as a dark colour, but as it dilutes through the water it gets lighter. Or do adding different colours in mix and produce new colours. The kids are technically playing - just pouring the water, but are learning at the same time.
I would imagine they learn more if there is at least some teacher input during these 'lessons'

My dd is at nursery school. She knows all her letter sounds and is now word building! Whilst it's not part of the eyfs due to dd being bright along with a few others they started them on phonics. The nursery school isn't attached to any school and the children go to a number of diff schools after so they will no doubt all use diff phonics schemes but I do know the majority here use jolly phonics x

My dd is at nursery school. She knows all her letter sounds and is now word building! Whilst it's not part of the eyfs due to dd being bright along with a few others they started them on phonics. The nursery school isn't attached to any school and the children go to a number of diff schools after so they will no doubt all use diff phonics schemes but I do know the majority here use jolly phonics x

Tbh, I'd be more concerned about the logistics of having 2 dc in different places, different care setting before/after nursery and during holidays than phonics. Have you checked that you will be able to find childcare to fill in all the bits that the school nursery doesn't cover?

Maybe ask if you can meet the teacher that the nursery have just recruited and ask her/him what they intend to cover?

You can do some phonics at home - no child who knows their letters will be 'behind' when they start reception.

Even though the children are learning through play, all the activities should be planned for and the learning outcomes recorded. Basically observations should be taken of children during free play as well as structured activities and the observation recorded plus the next steps.

Even in free play the staff should be engaging with the children and asking them questions about what they are doing ie can you use a red brick next or what does this rice/water feel like now it is mixed together. This way they can make observations etc based on the childrens understanding and responses.

Btw, my dd stayed at the same nursery between being 18 months and starting school. They didn't 'do' phonics as such but she definitely learnt lots there as well as at home.

She started reception being able to sound out with support 3 letter words and now coming towards the end is reading 2 years ahead of her age. She's certainly not the only one in her class either.