Sorry, another funding question!

[SmilingKiwi]

(And I promise I have looked on the government website to try and figure things out for myself!)
I am about to take my three year old for his first introduction hour at a private nursery next week, and I would just like to feel I know the workings of funding.
He is going for 12 hours a week, could you please tell me if the 15 hours 'free' allowed means we will not have to pay anything?!!
And does the government pay it directly to the nursery?
Can a private nursery say the allotment for the 'free' hours has already been 'taken' by other children attending?
ie they only allow 10 funded children within the private nursery and no more - the rest of the children have to pay.
Do some private nurseries not receive any funding? How can you find out if your one does/doesn't?
Can you tell I'm not familiar with the UK system??

Anything else a struggling Kiwi should know within this new 'Nursery World' I am about to enter? - apart from 'its happening all too soon and I feel like I've only just taught him to walk and talk and now he's practically leaving home!!' sob sob....

Thanks so much in advance,
xx

Some nurseries do not sign up to offer funding however if they do they can't limit the places available for funding as far as I know.

Our council limits how you take the hours so you can have a max of 12.5 over 2 days or 15 or at east 3 days. 9 hrs max a day 2.5 hrs minimum

There may be a 'top up', especially if it is a private nursery. DS2's has this, he gets the free 15 hours, but the vouchers are worth approx £7.50 and we pay the top up of £x per hour.

They are not technically allowed to charge a "top-up" the 12.5/15 hours have to be given free.

Thanks so much for the prompt and helpful replies

"He is going for 12 hours a week, could you please tell me if the 15 hours 'free' allowed means we will not have to pay anything?!!!"

In a private day nursery, the whole 12 hours will most likely be free. My dd will be going to a playgroup and annoyingly I will have to pay seperately for lunch as they're not classing lunch as part of their education entitlement. Grrrr.

"And does the government pay it directly to the nursery?"

Yes. You fill a form in and submit it to the LA (with copy of Birth Cert and Proof of Address) when your child enrols at the nursery. The nursery takes care of everything else. All funds are paid directly to them.

"Can a private nursery say the allotment for the 'free' hours has already been 'taken' by other children attending?
ie they only allow 10 funded children within the private nursery and no more - the rest of the children have to pay."

There's no 'allotment' per se, but a Private Day Nursery will obviously set full-day care as its priority and could very well limit the no. of 'grant only' children. They have to work to strict ratios and obviously have to sustain their business.

"Do some private nurseries not receive any funding? How can you find out if your one does/doesn't?"

There are criteria that need to be met, but most will access the funding because otherwise parents will choose to enrol their children elsewhere. Contact your local Family Information Service (FIS) and they will give you a list of providers accessing the grant.

HTH

Wow plonker you've got some good answers there!

Can I be cheeky and ask if private nurseries are not allowed to charge for services on top of the funding , why do they ask?
Does no one object or do they just stump up if the nursery is good?

Private nurseries can charge for services on top of the grant, they just can't make it a condition of the grant.

They can charge for lunch, snacks, extra hours etc. but what they can't do is say that you have to access xyz in order access the Free Early Education Entitlement.

You do hear of plenty of providers (have read it on here a lot) saying that they have to charge top-ups in order to remain sustainable - this is very risky because should the LA be made aware of this they would be asked to remove the top-ups - any refusal would most probably result in them having their funding withdrawn. This would certainly be the case in my LA.

I wonder how that would work if you weren't able to pay the "optional extra" charge for snacks etc. and DC was the only one who didn't receive any food or refreshments .

I got so fed up with all the slightly suspect price changes/reductions from the nursery manager that we chose the state primary pre-school instead.

You can choose to bring in your own snack. The settings can offer the snacks at a going rate but they can't make accepting it a condition of receiving the grant.

If the setting refused your child bringing their own snack, well you simply vote with your feet - no-one would choose a setting that excluded their child in such a way ...

Well, after a few hours visiting and letting the kids run around- mine especially! I was handed my first bill from the nursery, stating as a three year old it was compulsory for him to do a minimum of 15 hours (I am kinda ok with that, I wish it had been my choice as I am not returning to work so was happy with the 12 hours). The bill is for just over £900 for the first term, this includes a 'government funding reduction' of £640. So, if he was under three ie no government funding the 15 hours would have cost around £1500.
I am still confused as I was thinking the 15 hours would have been covered with no charge, I did speak to my local Family Information office, quite frankly the woman on the phone was useless and she said yes some private nurseries just charge extra on top of the free amount from the government- she didn't fill me with confidence that she knew what she was talking about- but then what do I know?!
Its a great place, and I guess our choice is lump it and pay up or they will find someone else to take his place. I am sure if I am brave enough (which I would be if I really knew my stuff)they are probably going to say the nursery wouldn't function to the standard if I was to pay nothing towards the 15 hours. If I don't want to pay the extra for the 15 hours then I should try a state nursery. Which in our area is not a choice I would like to take- and it should remain my choice not to.
Pretty annoyed (can you tell!!??) if they are getting away with something they shouldn't be.
xx

Try calling your local council early years team. Here in Hants that would not be permitted, they are very strict on it. If you want to use the EYE funding you have to offer it with no restrictions.

They also state here that invoicing should be very clear so it should state number of hours funded by the early years funding, and number of hours additional @ £x per hour.

How many hours is your child going for? Are they also covering school holidays as funding only applies for 38 weeks a year.

Thank you again for your replies.
I am not paying for any extra hours,just the 15hours per week, no school holidays as I am a SAHM.

In the schedule of fees, 5 sessions a week (15hours a week) it costs £1600 per term,ie if your child is not three, then this is the amount it costs you to send them for 5 sessions a week).

They then state that if your child is three, they will automatically be eligible for government funding- they give a figure of £640 for the funding.

Not sure where or how that figure is calculated.

So the difference between what they charge for 5 sessions minus the government funding amount is what I am to pay per term- £960 is the figure I have been invoiced for.

I am hoping I can talk to someone as you have recommended who has some authority and knows what they can and shouldn't be allowed to do.
I suppose if I don't want to pay the extra, someone else will be happy to and I will be asked to find another place- and there are not alot of options that I am happy about sending my son to.
Just makes me wonder why there hasn't been anybody else questioning it, then again I don't know that they haven't do I?

I have only met the other parents for an hour, so sadly can't really grill them, we don't meet up now again till September
Promise to keep you updated on my phone call to the Council.
This must be happening to others attending private nursery.

Best,xx

Don't speak to FIS, ask to speak to whoever is responsible for administrating the Free Early Education Entitlement in your LA.
You don't even have to give your name - just tell them how the setting is operating and they will investigate.

Lots of aspects of the Free Early Education Entitlement can be decided at at local level, operating the 15hrs free and without condition, cannot.

Hope you get it sorted, Good luck.

Thanks Plonker, I am grateful for your support (thats what it feels like ), it is making me upset to be questioning money, and I feel like a nasty piece of work not fronting up and paying without doubt.
I did speak to someone useless and they were from FIS, so your advice on who to call is much appreciated.

xx

No problem Kiwi

You're not a nasty piece of work at all - your ds is entitled to his free early education place. The nursery are behaving badly ...not you.

FIS are very helpful and will signpost you in the right direction, but they don't have the specialist knowledge on the funding. The funding administrators can tell you all you need to know and will investigate the nursery. As I say, you don't even need to give them your name

I really hope you get it sorted - keep us posted

Ohhhh Plonker -(you're really not a Plonker!!), thanks!
My DH and I are doing figures now on where the funding amount of £640 figure comes into the equation and are working out what the nursery are charging (based on the fees per term). Even if the funding is say £7 per hour, I shouldn't have to front up for another £960 per term.
My money is one if I don't like it, don't come! I would hate for them to be shut down as it is brilliant.

Kiwi
There's a lot of very good advice here. There are two points though that may help.

1. the 15 hours entitlement comes in nationally in sep 2010 - some places have it already, but you may not be in one of those. perhaps if you've started right now, you are in an authority that is still on 12.5 hours.

1. the free entitlement starts at the beginning of the term after the child's third birthday. ie. not when they turn 3. again if you've started now, and your child was 3 between april and now, then they won't be entitled to any of the free money until september. maybe you're being charged for july / aug?

hope that helps.

Just worked out that the amount of funding they state (£640) they are provided with is £3.36 per hour, based on 15 hours a week.
I have just taken the £640 amount stated from them as 'funding' and worked out what that would equal per hour based on a three term year, 38 weeks per year, 15 hours a week.

In the nursery guff it states that funding currently covers a third of the fees they charge. And that all three year olds have to do a minimum of 15 hours.

I agree that they probably can not operate if the funding only gives them £3.36 an hour, but this amount seems surprisingly low and I suspect the funding may be more realistic- as the amount suggested by LOOPYMUMSY where her LA funding amount is £8.35 per hour.
-I really have to go to bed!!

Good solutions NOTIMETOSTOP, but, my son doesn't start until middle of September, we haven't started yet ie aren't going to nursery until the September 2010 term, DS turned three in June.

I totally agree with you, everyone has been so helpful and the advice has been fantastic!
xx

Our LA funding is a pittance and is very similar to the amount which your nursery has quoted (NW England), so unfortunately your nursery is likely to be telling the truth with regards to this.

It really isn't enough and could very well decrease significantly with the introduction of Single Formula Funding. However, all that aside, rules are rules and the nursery cannot offer a free early education place that isn't free. They just can't.

After finally getting the right person on the telephone, I had an excellent conversation with the Early Years Team at my local council.

He spent about 45 minutes discussing everything with me, I read the invoice out to him and sections of the Parents Handbook I was given from the nursery stating how if your child was three they had to do a minimum of 15 hours etc.
He knew the nursery, he knew who the owner/manger is, and he was surprised that I had been invoiced for any amount. We both hope for an admin error.

My next step, now that I feel confident in the what this free 15 hours entitlement is about, is to ask for a break down for the invoice I have been given and see what the Nursery say.

Everything you all have said and advised is correct. They are in principal charging a top up, and making the £ value of their fund given by the government the parents problem as it is not enough. The £ value is irrelevant for those only wishing to use a maximum of 15 hours a week, its not the parents fault the nusery does not get enough.
The EYTeam advisor mentioned the nursery owners are aware they run at a loss when offering the Entitlement, before they signed up for it.

He also said I should not have been charged a £500 deposit for the 15 hours.

He did mention after quickly looking at the Nursery it seemed to say that 15.5 hours is taken up by those on the entitlement. This maybe a way of saying we are using 30 mins extra a week which is therefore over the 15 hour entitlement and is chargeable- at £970 per term which is about £3 a min, for the extra 5 mins a day as they state start and end time is 8.55, or 4.05pm.

Interesting concept, I suppose they could then say we are allocated the 15 hours at no charge as the government states, but they can charge what they like for the 5 minutes a day. He (the EYteam) said - after we discussed this option, they would still have to look into the Nursery as it was totally immoral and making the five minutes a conditition for receiving the entitlement, which is against the entitlement policy- which they have to abide by if offering it.

Will keep you posted after we have chatted the Nursery manager.
Thanks again for all your advice!

Glad you've finally spoken to someone in the know

Good luck with everything and keep us posted ...