20wks & DH suddenly wants to move to Australia! Warning - this is a long one...

[2ndDestiny]

Long story, but would appreciate some honest outsiders' perspectives, so pls bear with me if you can spare the time!

I'm 20 wks with my first. I'm anxious after a mc last year and fertility probs. Frantically trying to write up my PhD before baby arrives, but will not be ready to submit til after the birth, when I plan to have 3 months off, then depend on my mother (retiring and v excited about 1st grandchild) to help out with baby while I pull together final chapter/tie up loose ends.

DH has just come home from work and announced that he has been offered a 2-year secondment to Sydney . He is restless in his job, and has decided he really wants to go.

I DON'T want to go, at all, for many reasons. After constantly moving/travelling etc. in my 20's we now have our own house and I finally feel settled and attached to my life in London, and this was the context into which I had planned to bring our first baby. We both have very supportive family within 1-2hrs drive. However, he has pointed out that I was able to travel and live overseas when I was younger mainly because I came from a more privileged background and was more academically successful - which is all true. He waited patiently for me to make a couple of long overseas trips, and feels that now it is his turn. But he won't go without me and baby.

I am sympathetic to his reasons for wanting to go and I know that despite my reluctance I could make the most of it. So I have not told him that I don't want to go at all. Instead, I have told him that I will go on the condition that we can wait until a) after the baby is born, and b) after I have submitted my PhD thesis. In practice this means waiting 1 year (although he could obviously leave a little sooner and I could follow). I am scared at the prospect of flying to Australia pregnant and giving birth in a strange country/city where I know no-one, and being an isolated new mum. I don't react well to isolation and have suffered badly with depression in the past. Without access to my university facilities and help with childcare from my mum, there is no way I'll be able to finish my PhD and the last 3.5 years work will be down the toilet - coupled with the fact that I may be asked to repay the generous scholarship that has supported it. The PhD will enable me to get a better paid job in the long run, and DH has made it clear he doesn't want to be the sole breadwinner.

Unfortunately his boss is not willing to be flexible about timing, and he has to go now or never. I don't see how we can go right now, and DH is bitterly disappointed. I am worried he will always resent me and will feel that the baby and I are holding him back.

Are my concerns and conditions reasonable? Or am I being selfish? Should I just swallow my own fears and put his needs first and try my best to cope, so that he doesn't lose this opportunity?

Thanks for reading if you made it this far...

Sounds like the timing sucks. Your concerns are understandable - your conditions (particularly the phd completion one) understandable too. Also, are you both quite close to your families? How would they react to you being in Australia when first gc is born? Is that a big part of how you feel about the moving away?

FWIW, I know lots of people who relocated to other countries when pregnant/with small babies and it was fine for each of them. Babies are a great icebreaker and there are always playgroups/mother and baby groups etc you can go join and make friends in. And family can come out and visit for prolonged periods - especially if they are retired and you move to a big enough place for this reason.

The PHD would be the big thing for me - to have spent so long working on it and not being able to finish it, and having to repay a scholarship, would be an issue that just doesnt make this work. Would your DH's boss be more flexible about the timing if it was a matter of delaying for 6 months so baby could be born and phd completed? Will there be other opportunities for your DH? If he really wants to go so much, he really needs to think about if he'd be willing to go and for you to stay over here with the baby until you're ready to travel over there (which is an option)? Would mean him missing the birth of his first born child though. Is maybe his wanting to go so much a reaction in part to the stresses of about to be a dad?

I think you and your DH need to sit down and talk rationally about what the short term (over next 2 years) and long term (over next 10 years) plan is for your lives, including your child, and see if you can reach a deal that works for all of you. Good luck.

Thanks Dinky, all very sensible advice. Yes we are both very close to our parents but I have been away from my family for long periods before and would be fine with it, but I think all concerned will be very upset about not being near the baby - his parents more than anyone.

You are right though for me the PhD is the real dealbreaker. Unfortunately I know I won't finish it in 6 months - there will still be a lot of redrafting to do after the birth.

Interesting idea about this all being a reaction to the stresses of becoming a dad - I don't think it's just that but I wonder if that has some subconscious part in it - all of a sudden just as we are settling down he wants to act as if he there is nothing tying him down.

Sitting down and talking rationally is definitely a good idea but I will have to wait for things to calm down a bit... He's not brilliant at talking rationally and likes to point out that I am better at arguing/expressing myself... He does however, have a spectacular flare for sulking

I would go. I think even if he could, asking him to wait is unrealistic - your baby might be very demanding and you may be unable to work on your PhD at all for the first few months (I wouldn't have been able with either of mine, even if I had had a supportive parent nearby).

Can't you take a year away from your PhD and then come back to it? I don't think it would be very reasonable for your funders to ask for their money back if you took 'maternity leave' from your PhD for a year!

Then when you have found your feet you can start working on it again from there, and if necessary finish it when you come back in two years' time.

It's a couple of years of inconvenience for you vs. a lifetime of wondering if things might have been different if only.... for him.

I would also really worry about the effects on my marriage of making him miss out, tbh.

Thanks for your suggestions, ib. Yes, I am really worried about the effect on my marriage. Sadly I feel that taking a year off from the PhD would be sounding its death knells - I've already had a year off in bits and pieces due to mc, infertility, a long drawn out death in the family and a very serious car crash which it took me about 12 weeks to recover from last year. I've literally just picked up where I left off. But maybe I could still pick it up again. And yes, funders definitely have to respect maternity leave. I suppose I see it less as inconvenience and more as me probably having to give up my career for him - so there will be a lifetime of wondering either way, whatever we do. It's interesting and useful to hear what others would do and why.

I think you're being a bit defeatist. Yes, it can be hard to find the motivation to keep going, but you can do it (meant in the nicest possible way - it took me 4 years to do a postgrad that was supposed to be a 1 year course!)

Having a baby is such a shock to the system that I wouldn't want the pressure of having to finish a PhD with a tiny baby myself.

But totally understand how you feel about having the wind taken out of your sails about finishing now.

And I'm really sorry about your losses.

Is there any way you could do some work on your PhD from Australia? I really feel for you, what an awful situation to be in - I'd be utterly torn. Is your mum retired? Is there any way she could come out and spend a few months with you once the baby is born?

I agree with the poster above - if you make an effort, there's really no need for you to feel isolated with a newborn - new mums are one of the most well-catered-for sectors when it comes to social activities. As long as you do your research. It could be a wonderful couple of years for you as a family (and bear in mind he could never refuse you anything ever again after the sacrifices you'll be making!)

If it helps, I worked as a midwife in Australia (was 19 years ago though). Hospitals are run pretty much like the NHS. You can go private, but do not know if you would get insurance as you are already pregnant.

You might have health insurance due to your dh's work.

I loved Australia. It is very much a young people/family country.

I can see this is a very difficult decision for you to make 2nddestiny and it is one you absolutely haver to make as a family.

I was part way through a masters when I became pregnant with my first child and unfortunately didn't complete it. I was able to complete the exams so i have a PGDip which is better than nowt.

So I do understand your concerns about the likliehood of being able to complete a PhD w/out support from your mother as regards childcare - but even if you stay here it could be a struggle. However could Australia often new opportunities for you both? Career and personal opportunities not available in the UK? I don't know your field but if you move to an area with a good University would there be a chance you could complete your studies abroad?

Good luck but don't be left regretting an opportunity missed if there is a way it can work for you both it should be explored.

You should see this as a positive opportunity to do something fun and extend the length of time needed to finish your PhD Check the conditions of your grant. I had an AHRC grant for my PhD which allowed for 12 months maternity leave (though unpaid, I think). Taking it would also expand the time limits for submission by a year, giving you oodles of extra time to finish. (I'm going to be finishing my book MS during the latter half of my maternity leave!). It's actually a perfect time to give birth you will never again have as much flexibility in academia again, believe me!

I can see why you ideally might want to give birth in the UK. But the health care system in Australia is excellent (I'm Australian but have been living in the UK for 15 years) and you would have very good medical support if you decided to give birth there, either on public or private health systems. In addition, the Australian Breastfeeding Association gives superb support to new mothers, including lots of opportunities to meet and socialise with other new mums -- and Australians tend to be a friendly bunch! I don't think you need to worry about being lonely.

You should also be able to access very good University libraries if you're relocating to one of the major cities several Australian universities are in the world top 100 and you might even be able to arrange a formal exchange through your university here if, for example, you need lab space.

If the choice for your DH really is go to Australia now or not at all, I would go!

PS -- salary to cost-of-living ratio in Australia is loads better than in the UK, so you should be able to afford some childcare to give you the space to finish too.

FWIW I've always allowed my dh to make his own decsions about such things, after I have made my intentions very clear. For instance he wanted to go to work in Japan for a year before we were married, I didn't, so I told him I wouldn't be going and then let him make his own decision, trusting him to make the right one for all of us. I didn't and still don't make any decisions like that for him, as like you I don't wish him to have any resentment towards me or our dc. I haven't always been happy with his choices but then I'm sure he hasn't been happy with mine either!

Thanks unrequited and aged, and ib again,

Your comments about what it's like being a new mum in a new place are very encouraging and it sounds like that's something I can cope with and get around. Re: hospitals/health care, I've no doubt the standard of care will not be an issue, but yes I need to figure out if I could actually get insurance cover at this stage for the birth - at the mo DH's insurance covers nothing to do with pregnancy at all. Mum is retiring v soon and could possibly come out for the birth and after - except that I also need her to look after my beloved cat! (starts to sound like a potty old cat lady - that again is something we can figure out).

This thread has really helped me to realise that it's the PhD that is the sticking point. Yes, I think most of you are right, if I have to, I will find a way of finishing it from Sydney - other people do this long distance - it will just be a longer and harder slog, and I feel so deflated that having just started to make headway again I am faced with yet another enormous disruption. I was nervous about managing baby plus PhD anyway but thought I had come up with an arrangement which would enable me to keep a handle on it, whereas baby (much, much wanted) plus PhD (also very important) plus moving far far away into the unknown seems a lot to get my head around right now...

Another option I think I will discuss with DH is him going now, coming back for the birth, and me and baby then going to join him soon after

Thanks so much for all your comments and advice

Oops x post with lots of you, have to go back and read the rest...

Thanks Bigmouth, Beanlet and 3Legs

All of you have helped me to feel more positive about the whole thing - and I think DH will be more able to engage in mature discussion if I seem positive than if I seem resistant.

Beanlet, I was actually funded by the ESRC so rules should be very similar - it hadn't occurred to me that I can actually take so much mat leave. Unpaid yes but funding has just run out anyway. I think I will lose my SMP/Maternity Allowance though (need to check) which I qualify for due to my earnings from graduate teaching.

My real reasons for wanting to give birth here (apart from being somewhere familiar) are nothing to do with the health system and more to do with proximity to family, but I bet my mum and sis would try to come out for birth (a bit tricky to time it right though isn't it).

3Legs I think you make a good point about independent decision-making - I have always been of the same opinion - but in this case it doesn't seem to be working, DH feels that now that there's a baby on the way, it's not just me refusing to go with him, it's me separating him from his child which restricts the decisions he can make - so I guess we do need to figure this one out together.

Feeling a lot more hopeful about it now at least...

University of Sydney is one of the best Australian universities, and unless you still have fieldwork to do, which seems unlikely if you're now writing up, you should have equivalent facilities to finish your PhD to your home university. You might even find that your university is a member of the World Universities Network or equivalent, making a formal exchange even easier.

I know a few people who have had a 1 or 2 year secondment to another country and 2 couples who have used that time (while the difference in the cost of living and expenses from the company) have made it a good time for the woman to take a few years from work and get the having kids bit done.
The difference is they planned it that way but i think it feels to you like its being forced on you.

I can't really offer any advice, but before you make a decision, look at the pros as well as the cons of going there for a couple of years. There are worse places in the world to be of work for a year or so!

Have to say, also that childcare in Aussie was way better than over here. My dd was 11months old when we went over for 2.5 years and went to kindy when I went to work.

Just had a fab chat with a very close friend (also a PhD in my dept.) who has helped me to see that it doesn't have to be this dramatic 'my marriage or my career' choice that I was making it out to be. She thinks I will find a way to do the PhD (she knows my academic commitment and abilities, so is in a good position to judge) even if it's scary, but thinks I should insist on giving birth in a context where I feel safe and supported as a first priority. e.g. if I really feel uncomfortable about birth over there, DH to go now and me to follow later with baby.

Thanks for the tip about Sydney university, will def look into that and also ask colleagues/supervisors about contacts over there. Yes fieldwork all finished, just need a good social science library really. And yes it does look like an interesting, fun and cosmopolitan place! Good advice to look at the pros as well as cons. Thanks all for your input, it really has helped me get my head around this and think about what is possible for us

Good luck with it all! Do repost if you want further information re Australian academia; happy to help.

Thanks beanlet, certainly will! Have had a good talk with DH now and still not sure what we're going to do as it turns out he's just as worried as I am about things like being far away from family with a new baby (i.e. he feels guilty for taking the baby away from his parents) and is frustrated by the timing... but at least I now feel like we are on the same 'side' and can make this decision together.

Hi 2nd destiny,

I read this post last week and really felt for you, excited about the adventure but worried about leaving your life behind when your just about to have a child.

I had no idea that a week later I would find myself in a similar position!!!

So I have lots of questions, but the first is does anyone know anything about visas? My husband will have a 2 year working visa, will I get in on that or will I need one of my own, if so will they give me a visa when I'm pregnant?

Hi picook

I wonder if your post has not been seen by many as it's tagged onto on old thread? Not sure..

Anyway I'm prob not the best person to answer as things are still very up in the air for us and I have only done very cursory research into visas, but I found this useful:

www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/

I think my DH would get an employer-sponsored visa, is that what you're talking about? If so then from the info on this site you are a 'secondary applicant' and will have 'full work and study rights'. Not sure if being pregnant will have any effects - your DC's would also count as secondary applicants as far as I can tell.

The thing about being pregnant is to make sure you have adequate medical insurance to cover whatever antenatal care you need/ childbirth etc. I have read that there is a reciprocal arrangement with the UK whereby you can get access to Medicaid (I think that's what it's called) but it might take time to sort out when you get there so best to have your own insurance in place.

However, this is all based on the most cursory research and I really know nothing about the Aussie medical system (except that it's reputed to be good) - so perhaps someone more knowledgeable will come along to help!