Scans. Why do we bother?

[spidermama]

I expect I'll be a lone voice on this matter but here goes.

I never had scans. Didn't see the point. I think routine scanning is an expensive waste of NHS money and regularly scares women during pregnancy.

I've lost count of the number of women who've had needless, sleepless nights because of comments made or action taken as a result of scans.

I don't need them for bonding. I can bond perfectly well without a grainy picture.

Yet the vast majority of all women I meet seem to love scans. Why?

I didn't think I'd be called upon to justify my original posting, but it seems to have touched so many nerves so here goes.

I often find my intuition to be at odds with the medical establishment. This became more pronounced when I started having babies 7 years ago. It's not easy and sometimes I wish I had the faith in doctors and their tools that the majority of women seem to enjoy. In all concience though, I don't. I do what I believe is right. Surely that's what we all do.

I believe that birth has, over the years, been over medicalised. It seems to me that most women believe it's something they could never attempt on their own. It has been taken away from women and put into the hands of doctors (mostly men) and their machines. We've lost our confidence in our innate power of birthing. Giving birth sets us apart from men.

I'm sorry if you find those views offensive. they're my views and you're perfectly at liberty to disregard them.

I was schocked and amazed by allegations from some posters that I am 'smug', 'insular' and 'irresponsible'.

My first pregnancy miscarried at thirteen weeks and I'm grateful to that lost being for giving me an invaluable insight into how NOT to approach pregnancy and birth. I had a terrible time in hospital.

Since then I've had four home births (one very traumatic, one fairly traumatic and two straight forward) and another home miscarriage.

There's an entire book about this subject inside me so I won't get into it now as I'll be late for the teddy bear's picnic ...

I'm very grateful to writers and birth gurus like Sheila Kitzinger, Deborah Jackson and Ina May Gaskin whose views I share. I can recommend their books to anyone who wants a more informed and balanced view of the subject.

Believe me it's not easy to seem to be disagreeing with mainstream thought at every turn. It's a lonely business and, as you'll see from some of the postings here, people get unaccountably angry and feel free judge. Therefore, I rarely dare to bring up my views, even with friends.

I'm new to Mumsnet and was excited by what I saw as an opportunity to find like-minded people in this large and diverse forum. I long to talk to others who hold similar but rarely get the chance.

I thought, wrongly, that those who don't share my views would either enjoy an interesting debate, or visit other threads. I'm saddened that so many felt the need to attack.

Thanks for all you who supported some of my points of view and, perhaps more importantly, my right to express them.

Must go to the teddy bear's picnic now.

Spidermama

I am sympathetic to a lot of your views. However, I wouldn't turn down a scan, because I think that I can be useful. I don't think it's necessary or even useful for the purposes of bonding (I feel I 'bonded' even with the baby I lost at 11 weeks, whom I never saw on a scan), but it is useful to pick up potentially serious health problems.

My own situation was odd, though. I had Grade IV placenta praevia with dd1. This must have been visible when I had my 20 week scan, but I wasn't told anything. My hospital had a policy of not mentioning the position of the placenta (I guess because most placentas which are low at 20 weeks will 'move' by 40 weeks, and - as you said - many placenta praevia cases are detected by bleeding anyway). I started bleeding at 27 weeks and spent 10 weeks in hospital in total. Despite my misgivings about the 'medicalisation' of childbirth, I was very grateful to the medical staff who stood by all that time (I kept bleeding on and off) ready to deliver my dd if necessary. I didn't enjoy the experience of being there, but I am very glad that I was there and that my dd and I were both fine. With dd2 I was understandably worried about the position of my placenta, but at my 20 week scan they refused to tell me where it was... even when I'd explained my past experience and why I was so worried about it. Eventually and very reluctantly they admitted it was low again (though not covering the os this time). Fine... It didn't change anything about the way I lived my pregnancy. But I was aware of it. I wouldn't have gone camping on my own in the Outer Hebrides without a mobile phone (IYKWIM) and when I was away from home I made a point of finding out where the nearest hospital was just in case... but that was all. I also had another scan at 34 weeks, which confirmed that the placenta was now clear of the os and I had a VBAC with minimal medical intervention (I was in hospital, but no continuous monitoring, no drugs, etc.). I believe that the scans I had in my 2nd pregnancy actually helped me to have an un-medical birth experience. Without the reassurance of the scans, I think I'd have been under more pressure to have a 2nd c-section and/or a much more managed labour.

Anyway, not sure that that's very coherent, but just wanted to add my experience.

imo scans are not for "bonding", rather they are a medical tool which used sparingly and appropriately can be useful in protecting the mother and child's lives. i had an Edwards Syndrome scare with dd2 and the scan helped to reassure me that none of the common physical markers were present, we went on to have an amnio and dd2 is perfectly healthy. you can refuse a scan, you know.

Hi spidermama your views were not offensive to myself and you are only expressing your personal opinion and you have every right in the world too....you do what you feel is right for you....

I approached scans as a medical diagnostic tool because I was pg at an age which is considered v old for childbearing, and does have an increased risk of chromosomal disorders (and I don't mean DS - the 'non-vaiable' ones). I was very grateful that DS's talipes was dx'd at the 2o week scan because it gave me the cahnce to do loads of research, find the support networks, have a meeting with the very kind and suportive paediatric orthpaedic consultant etc etc.

Of course, none of this was life-and-death, BUT it meant that my first few moments with Ds were not jolted by the discovery that there was a lot less foot and leg than most babies have - and then we had to stay in for a week for anti-biotics, and truly, had I not been able to do the research I had done, the crass and ignorant things that were said to me during that week would have driven me to despair.

I can completely understand why some people do NOT want them, but I'm glad I did!

Ellbell, to my mind you're a great example of when Ultrasound really comes into its own.

Congratulations on having a VBAC - That must've felt very empowering and I can understand how Ultrasound was a vital tool to enable you to go ahead with this.

If I had any concern about the way a pregnancy or an ensuing birth were progressing, I'd have no hesitation in making full use of available medical resources.

My point is that pregnancy and birth are routinely regarded pathologically, as if they were illnesses to be treated, with babies to be extracted at the end.

I think the technology is often over-rated and it can undermine the woman, as a birth giver.

My midwife told me that the first question midwives are taught to ask a pregnant woman is, 'How do you intend to deal with the pain?'. This, though well meant, sends out the message 'you won't be able to do this without help'. Already, then, a reliance is created between the woman and care giver.

I could, and maybe one day will, write a book on this subject. I'm passionate about birth and would love more women to have informed choices which are less reliant on the medical model.

For those of you who prefer the support of technology and the medics, that's a perfectly valid choice. I wouldn't presume to knock it.

I feel some women aren't given the tools to make an informed decision about their care, and are denied magnificent birthing experiences as a result.

Message withdrawn

spidermama
" 'How do you intend to deal with the pain?'. This, though well meant, sends out the message 'you won't be able to do this without help'. Already, then, a reliance is created between the woman and care giver. "

• yes, and why not? Because she's seen it happen before, knows what happens "normally" and what can go wrong ie can ask for help so you/baby don't die.

I'm not sure any more books are necessary on this topic, there are plenty of good ones around on informed choice, it's more a case of passing on the information to the right people.

I think, bundle, you may be reading books which concern themselves with avoidance of death. I tend to prefer the ones about life.

If there's a problem, I'd use the technology, but I won't do it routinely. To me that's like saying, 'I think I'll pop into casualty today in case I break my arm'.

I don't assume the worst, I enjoy life then if the worst happens I deal with it as and when. I'm sad that people are so scared and spend so much time avoiding things which are unlikely to happen.

spidermama your analogies are totally wide of the mark. i read all sorts of books, from touchy feely to medicalised (for work). i have no truck with intervention for its own sake and worry about the high rate of c/s at the moment. no one is advocating you step into A&E each time you go out of the door, that's just silly. and you have already said you understand the value of taking BP during pregnancy, which has been a valuable tool in helping to prevent needless deaths and complications in pregnancy. these "interventions" are all a matter of degree - a woman could refuse to have her BP taken if she chose to do so but imo having that check carried out is worthwhile for the few women (not necessarily her/you) that it will help.

'toucy feely'? Hmmmmm! Not the most tolerant of descriptions perhaps.

oh grow up. i get sent all kinds of books and yes, i've read kitzinger, odent et al. call it what you will, i can see where their philosophies would/wouldn't work.

Good for you Bundle.

yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

spidermama, I think I probably owe you an apology for my post yesterday. It was much sharper than I intended it to be - blame PMT if you like - but I do apologise for the tone of my post.

I find it frustrating when people express differing opinions, which then get poo-pooed by the original poster because they don't agree with them. This thread seemed to me to be going that way.

I can understand the reasons you feel as you do, but I still believe that everyone else's opinion is equally valid. There are no absolute rights and wrongs; just opinions and beliefs, which we are all entitled to have. It just didn't seem that you were at all willing to accept that anyone else's opinions were valid, and that was why I posted what I did. I was over the top, and I apologise.

I must go now. Busy, busy. The trees won't hug themselves.

Spidermama, you've obviously got a very glass-half-full approach to life, which is lovely.

I fretted about my scans - no particular reason to, and thankfully everything was fine - but that's just the kind of person I am. I fret about long car journeys too, probably with more justification .

I wish I could have your attitude too, but I can't - but I don't think there's much point in you asking that everyone else should either.

Spidermama, people have reacted to your comment: 'I think routine scanning is an expensive waste of NHS money ...'. That's a fairly inflammatory statement. People have, countered your argument. Scans are not a waste of money. You may not want them but it's plain rude to imply that people who do have scans are wasting NHS resources.

FWIW I had four - nuchal x2 (got my dates wrong and had to go back), 20 week and a heart scan. The nuchal was medically necessary and a huge relief. The 20 week was also medically necessary and fortunately another huge relief. The heart scan was also medically necessary and another huge relief. At each scan the sonographer (and consultant at the heart scan) explained everything fully including the limitations of scanning ? for instance, some heart defects occur so late in pregnancy that they wouldn't show up at the scan.

I wouldn't have any more scans than was medically necessary, because although there is no evidence to show that ultrasound is at all harmful, there's no point taking any more risks than are strictly necessary. My medical history means I have been extremely lucky to have a healthy (and gorgeous!) ds. Some of the potential complications for any pregnancy of mine would be serious enough for me to consider termination. Thank God I didn't actually have to face that decision, or wait until the birth before I knew ds was OK in terms of those complications. Without that information pregnancy would have been a terrifying time for me. Please don't tell me I'm wasting NHS resources.

Ive talked about this with my mum cos she had twins (her 5th and 6th children btw) without realising she was carrying two. They were lying back to back so there was only one heartbeat and no indication of more than one head etc. Funnily enough just before she went in my aunt said to her 'Maybe youre having twins cos youre alot bigger with this one than with the others' and they both laughed. My mum like me had very small bumps. so for that reason I really wanted a scan as you can imagine. Think of going in for one and coming home with two

Edam, perhaps the 'waste of nhs funds' quote is a bit of a headline grabber. But if I may refer you to every other post I've made I think you'll find the tone less inflammatory.

I have no wish to be inflammatory, but I reserve the right to be allowed to express my view, evben if it's a minority one.

I'm off to do the school run now but will check posts later if I feel strong enough!

I agree. Had one for the amnio but declined all others. I think the NICE guidelines only recommend one scan at 20 weeks now for exactly your reasons.

Scans were the highlight of my pgs! I couldn't get enough of watching my little ones. Fascinating. I wish I could've experienced an MRI. Agree that NHS money could probably be better spent elsewhere (except when there's a problem with the pg). Still, I treasure the first images of my babies.

Err... maybe I should keep out of anything regarding the NHS. My healthcare is in a different country & we pay through the nose for it. By law.

When I told my GP best friend about a colleague whose brother had been unplanned and he had been unexpected that that sort of thing would not happen nowadays, she said "ummmmm.... weeeeell...it's happened to me ". Apparently seh delivered a baby, was back out in the corridor and got bleeped back in as another one was on its way!. She says that the lady had eeb saying all along she was big for her dates (it wasn't a first pregnancy, so she "knew"), but for some reason she was never scanned. on best friend's behalf!

This was at least 15 years ago though.

Ooooer! FF. I hadn't come across those.