Foods to avoid - how strictly do you / did you stick to the guidelines?

[floraflora]

V. early days of pregnancy no.2. Last time I stuck rigidly to the guidelines of what foods to avoid, in a bit of a swotty, good-girl kind of way. This time I feel a little more rebellious. Until I did a test I was swigging sweet sherry left over from Christmas and devouring blue cheese.
The French and Italians don't seem to worry too much, are we just a nation of girl swots who like to obey rules?

Not at all.

I just carry on as usual. I don't drink a lot in any case and don't smoke (would probably give up smoking I think).

Other than that I think the lot is a great big pile of crap and if human beings were really so delicate then there wouldn't be so many of us.

This approach has worked for me personally.

Sorry for being the voice of doom, but it really is sensible to try to follow the guidance as much as possible. These are precious little lives we are carrying here and we often presume that bad things happen to others and "we will be fine". As someone for whom it hasn't been fine (not food related) and who has met others who have lost babies at term or late pg due to listeria and toxoplasmosis, I am incredibly careful about what I eat, washing my hands etc.

When something does happen the years of wondering why and what if are bad enough without the guilt of having chomped your way through a blue cheese mountain throughout pregnancy. ( or to be honest, wondering if that little bite of pate was what caused it).

Not scaremongering, just offering a realistic view from the sad side of the fence.

There are loads of people who take no notice whatsoever of the guidance and end up to have perfectly healthy babies. Friend of mine who has a pub said one pregnant girl carried on drinking vodka which if it isn't bad enough by itself, but with red bull!!! in the same quantities as pre pregnancy.

I think the main issue with these guidelines is that if you do choose to ignore them and then somethings happens (even in cases where its only a small risk) then how guilty would you feel, its something you'd never get over FOR LIFE, so 9 months of being good is a small price to pay.

I have stopped eating paté, blue cheese (which I love) soft cheeses, under cooked meat (though since being pg the thought of any meat makes me want to puke), I've been extra careful about washing my hands and have cut alcohol down to half a small glass of wine once in a blue moon.

However, I haven't given up runny egg yolk. I feel I appease the egg gods by only ever buying eggs from local, happy, organic, jolly chickens. A hard yolk on your poached egg is such a miserable thing.

Peanut butter - no-one in my family or my partner's family has any allergies, so the official guidelines can sod off. If I'm making peanut satay then it'll have peanut butter in it.

I wash salad, of course, but don't believe that if you rinse lettuce leaves then toxic nasties will just wash away. Surely if you have to wash your hands with warm soapy water to kill off nasties then a rinse with cold water isn't going to make that much difference to lettuce leaves. Still, I'm not about to start putting my lettuce in the washing machine...

Fairly strictly. I know the risks are small, but there wasn't anything that I wanted enough to make the risk worthwhile. I could do without soft cheese and peanuts for 9 months. I did have a small glass of wine once a week though.

mrsrvc sorry, and yes, i take the point that it's orth doing for peace of mind if nothing ele.
FWIW i'm vegi so most doesn't apply - i don't particularly like cheese other than bog standard cheddar, mozarella etc. I didn't drink until 20 weeks with ds as i couldn't face it, drank a bit earlier wth dd. peanuts were the only thing i really craved!

I'd be careful. A friend knows someone who mc after having a tiny bit of blue cheese. Tests showed it was listeria. Was quite late into the pregnancy, I think.

Just not worth the risk. It's only nine months of your life - but it could mean the diffrerence between life and death. Could you live with the guilt?

What I'd like to know is the detail of the risks. For example, if you eat tons of, say, blue cheese, are you more at risk than someone who has one little taster in the whole 9 months? What happens if you really crave a rare steak - your body is probably telling you that you need a certain nutrient. Will one hurt? What are the statistics; how many women in, say, 100 who do eat a 'forbidden' food will actually develop something that risks the baby?
I'm not feeling deprived and I don't really mind sticking to the rules, I guess it's just that I think we don't really question so-called facts and statics enough.

Have been quite relaxed about it, many soft cheeses are made from pasteursied milk these days so you don't have to give up your brie entirely! Have also had medium steak and soft poached eggs. Like EldonAve I am avoiding liver and raw shellfish though. Not that they are common to my diet anyway...

My impression is that the risks are generally small - but they do exist, hence the advice to avoid certain foods and drinks.

I believe you could eat a load of blue cheese (or whatever) and be fine - if you happened not to ingest any containing any nasties. Or you could eat a tiny amount of something with, say, listeria in it and be the unlucky one.

So yes, luck has a part to play in all this and I guess my own approach is not to tempt fate, where possible. (Although, as I said in an earlier post, I haven't been a total paragon).

I reckon it isn't really a big deal to try and keep to the guidelines because it is only for a relatively short period of time and it's better to be safe than sorry.

Morph I carried on drinking the same as before as well. That's only bad in itself if pre-pregnancy you were drinking I dunno 3 drinks every day or something. 20 units wasn't a typo but perhaps I got the amount wrong. She definitely said it was ok to drink 1-2 drinks a day (the number 11 drinks a week sounds familiar) and that any research done about FAS only showed damage to children who had mothers who drank more than this.

Helenwombat, have the guidelines in OZ changed? Used to be the same as in the UK. 1-2 units, 1-2 times a week?

The way I see it is it is about calculated risk. There are far more serious RTA's every year than there are cases of listeriosis cases in the UK every year, and yet no-one suggests we don't drive out cars when pregnant.

I think it is just another way for people to give them a false sense of control over pregnancy and safety. There are no guarantees, you can dot the "i's" and cross the "t's" and still have a miscarriage/stillbirth/disabled baby.

Long ago decided to take a pragmatic approach to pregnancy, there is no way to control getting a healthy baby. So I trust to the design and look after my body as well as I can and let go of the rest.

First pg, did not eat anything 'banned' so to speak.

Second pg - did not drink alcohol, only because i was unable to due to being sick. Much of the stuff does not apply, for example pate. I kept away from smoked salmon, ate within my quota for fish high in mercury, and did not eat non-pasteurised or blue cheese in any amount.

I did eat the odd lion-marked egg slightly runny, and i ate peanut butter like there was no tomorrow. I had severe hyperemesis and at one point the only thing i could eat without throwing up was peanut butter so i followed the train of thought that if this was all i could eat, if it was the only thing my body would allow to stay down, then it must be ok. I took it that my body was being ultra efficient at disgarding the stuff that could cause damage (everything else!). I read research which suggested that eating peanuts while baby was in utero would actually reduce the risk of allergy as it built tolerance. I decided to follow that suggestion (to make me feel better).

As for everything else, i felt, while the risks were minimal, it did not hurt me to avoid those things while pg (as well as not physically being able to anyway), so therefore i just avoided them.

HerbalHolly - they have changed the guidance on peanuts now, this time round I've been told if you avoid peanuts then your child has a greater risk of an allergy! So don't feel guilty about that one!

2nd time round I have been much more relaxed - I have the odd glass of wine, I have a runny egg if I fancy it, I had stilton over xmas as a treat (though generally I've avoided blue/soft cheese). I've also given up on decaf tea as I hate it and have normal tea/coffee but just cut down to no more than 4 cups a day. So far this baby is perfectly healthy!

I think the listeria thing is a bit silly, how many cases a year are there of listeria in the general population let alone pregnant women? I've never heard of anyone getting it.

I'm a first-timer and trying to stick to the guidelines. I've had no booze or caffeine since I found out (I'm only at 10 weeks) and none of the banned cheeses, fish etc. to be honest I'm just nervous about the 'banned list' and wouldn't enjoy tucking into a mountain of blue cheese anymore -I love it but nerves/ guilt would take away all the pleasure for me this time!

My mum had many miscarriages and my SIL got food poisoning at 7 months from a dodgy prawn -baby was fine but she felt so guilty it's affected my decision not to give myself any possible regrets.

Also my DSS has autism and his mum drank the odd glass throughout pregnancy, and there are now studies claiming links... which may of course be bollocks, but if it turns out your child is anything less than in 100% good health I worry you'd always ask yourself if that G&T/ toast & pate/ camembert baguette was really worth the risk.

Maybe in future pregnancies I'll be less paranoid -but so far it hasn't felt difficult to avoid things that may generate risk.

SqueezyB - I would not say that the listeria thing is silly. A good friend of mine, who I have met since I lost my son lost her daughter shortly afterbirth due to listeria poisoning. She herself was asymptomatic.

Like I said in my earlier post, its rare, but it DOES happen. She was very careful, and it could simply have been a peice of unwashed salad. But she does say that she is grateful for not having ignored the rules as she knows that she did everything she could.

HerbalHolly - Washing salad is better than not washing it. The guidance given to said friend was to spray any uncooked veg ( inc salad and herbs etc) with a water vinegar mixture and then rinse with water. I admit that might seem a bit much to some, but it helps to reassure me (Also acknowledge that I am probably more likely to need reassurance).

Anyway, I think its a personal choice at the end of the day. The risks are very small, but as I said earlier, if you are the unlucky one, you have to live with not knowing if you could have prevented the worst from happening.

fwiw - I still eat peanuts!

PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! They are almost stricter here in France than in England.

If you have immunity to toxoplasmosis (you are tested at the beginning of pg) you can eat rare meat and not worry about salad and veggies so much, or exposure to cats.

If you have no immunity you must avoid rare meat (it must be cooked the whole way through) and be careful about salad and raw vegetables. You are tested once a month throughout pregnancy.

Regardless of toxo status the guidelines here also say no soft, mould-ripened cheese (pasteurised makes no difference when it's mould-ripened), no blue cheese, no goat's cheese, no raw fish, no deli meats such as pate, no smoked meats or fish.

It only takes one small amount of listeria/toxoplasmosis infected foodstuff to have catastrophic consequences - even if the risks of being exposed to either is relatively small - the results can be horrible.

With alcohol one glass of wine isn't going to hurt, but the cumulative effect can be serious. That's the difference.

Personally I have been fairly relaxed, but I have not eaten cheese or pate - apart from a small amount of foie gras at Christmas, but it was homemade, by a very hygenic pharmacist, so I thought the risk was about as small as it could get.

I have one glass of wine or champagne a week, if I feel like.

I have drunk a cup of coffee a day too (staying within guidelines)

Here are the official guidelines:
www.eatwell.gov.uk/agesandstages/pregnancy/whenyrpregnant/

I questioned the risks myself early in pregnancy and I think it is up to everyone to make their own choices based on the information they have, but I really don't think the guidelines are there to make us miserable or so that some faceless bureaucrat can feel like he's got power over pregnant women - the guidelines are there to protect us and and our babies and they are based on years of study. There are no clinical trials done on pregnant women, as far as I know, as the risks are too great, so they have to be able to update the information as the information to hand changes, such as with peanuts (and I too have wolfed down peanut butter, especially when morning sickness was at it's absolute worst!)

someof the things proscribed are so unlikely to cause harm they may as well tell you not to cross the road. Life always carries with it the risk of death -

and its never just 9 months - I will be on 2.5 years of pregnancy after this one is over, and then breastfeeding on top of that...

so basically i use my common sense. I eat prawns - i have never had a problem with them. Raw oysters perhaps not - but then i woudn't usually.

small amounts of booze (to be fair, i feel too sick and tired for booze in early pregnancy, and it is very unlikely to cause harm later unless you seriously over do it.) There is no evidence of harms causd by 2- units per week.

I go off caffeine in early pregnancy, but swig tea profligately later on...

food - can't afford unpasteurised cheese anyway - and i don't usually eat pate. and never ate raw meat anyway!

birdofthenorth - which study is this, linking autism with moderate alcohol use?

Or is it linked with heavier alcohol use, and your DSS's mum feels guilty because she had the odd one?

The best thing to do is read up on the reasons WHY certain things are recommended that we avoid and then make informed choices.

Not all foods on the "not recommended" list are as risky as each other.

e.g. I tested positive for having had toxoplasmosis in the past when I was pregnant last time, so I have immunity to that and therefore don't need to be careful about things that have toxoplasmosis as the main risk (soil, cats, rare/undercooked meat).

But I still have to be careful about listeria because it can be a cause of stillbirth, so a whole load of cheeses, chilled pre-cooked or raw fish or meat type foods can be a danger. Listeria bacteria are destroyed by cooking or freezing though so many things are "safe" if they have been in the freezer 24-48 hours then defrosted before you eat them. Such as smoked salmon, sushi etc. Also please know that if you are infected with listeria you may not get ill until several weeks after eating the food in question (with flu like symptoms, or nothing you'd even notice) so you might never know what it was that caused it. You could blame mouldy cheese for causing a tragedy when actually you could never be certain that's what it was.

I live in a Scandinavian country where they do not advise pregnant women to avoid liver products so I do on occasion eat ultra heat treated liver paste, the type that comes in tins and can be stored in the cupboard (as opposed to normal refrigerated pate), in fact at times I craved it very dramatically so my body must have needed the nutrition from it.

Peanuts I eat, they are not putting my baby's life in danger. I drink two or three cups of tea a day, or one coffee. Caffeine in large doses is linked with miscarriage in early pregnancy but is not a threat as such later on as far as I know.

Alcohol is proven to be harmful to fetal development and although most medics think the odd glass is not dangerous, crucially they do not know at what level it starts to be harmful. Which is why they recently changed the advice to none, it's the only thing they can responsibly do. I have however had one or two totally guilt free glasses of wine on half a dozen special occasions (e.g. family wedding, Christmas Day, New Year's Eve).

I eat "no no" cheeses if they have been cooked e.g. gorgonzola baked at high temperature on a pizza or stilton in a cooked sauce.

Ignorance is our worst enemy. We can inform ourselves of the science behind these recommendations and make our own choices but it's better they are based on facts, not just taste...

But if you do not have the time, inclination or energy to do the reading, then the best thing to do is of course avoid everything on the "don't list" as it just keeps life very simple for a few months.

The worst thing is when other people start making pregnant women feel bad, as in "Oh, should you really be eating that?" or getting self righteous with each other about who is being the better mother, before the babies are even here.

Everyone is entitled to make up their own minds.

Good to have guidance in France clarified. Does anyone actually know what it is in Italy?

I take the point about knowing if something goes wrong it's not your doing - and I have two friends who have had still births, though no conclusive reasons were found. I also take the point about the possibility of being asymptomatic.

Personally the only times I've had food poisoning were all (several years apart) from dodgy crab or prawns eaten in Chinese restaurants or from take-aways - all of which were 'reputable' establishments. I can see why the government wouldn't put those on the 'to avoid list' but I wonder if that sort of risk is actually higher.

I have eaten liver in small quantities (GP agreed this was fine, danger is from overdose of vit A, which wouldn't be problem from occasional small portion) - have had occasionally a bit runny egg as salmonella risk now seems small as hens vaccinated. Have had very occasional half glass of wine with a meal.

Had medium rare steak but wouldn't eat very rare one.

Discussed this with GP - she said she gets annoyed to see pregnant women carefully avoiding all sorts of things that are probably ok and then when the kids are born feeding them sweets, chocolate, fizzy drinks, ready meals etc etc.

Might be a stupid question but is seeded bread ok? I dont know if seeds are viewed in the same way as nuts!